Bad Play or Easy Call? Heads Up $5

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07-23-2007, 09:01 PM
mikeneron

Bad Play or Easy Call? Heads Up $5

This guy either raised or folded from the button and he raised close to 70% of the hands so I put his raising range on Q8s+, any pocket pair, and any ace. Whenever I called his preflop raise and checked the flop, he would always lead out with a half pot sized bet. I was just waiting to capitalize on this when I actually made a hand. I wasn't expecting to get re-raised all in here, so figured he must have an ace and it was probably better than mine.

It was 690 to call into a 2190 pot so I was getting 3:1 odds on my money. I figured I had 7 outs (2s x 4, 5s x 3)...so close to 30% shot of winning with 2 cards to come...so that translates into about 2.5:1 (round up) to win...so I think it's an easy call. Even if he had 2 pair here, the 2s and 5s are still outs.

Is my math and logic correct here?

Hero's M = 19.20
PokerStars Game #11098817303: Tournament #56291247, $5.00+$0.25 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level III (25/50) - 2007/07/23 - 20:10:30 (ET)
Condensed history provided by the Tournament Trimmer (v1.1.2w) from http://www.FlopTurnRiver.com
Table '56291247 1' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: mikeneron (1440 in chips)
Seat 2: AllenJ (1560 in chips)
AllenJ: posts small blind 25
mikeneron: posts big blind 50
Preflop: mikeneron dealt 5:spade: A:club:
AllenJ: raises 100 to 150
mikeneron: calls 100
Flop: 4:diamond: 3:diamond: A:spade:
mikeneron: checks
AllenJ: bets 200
mikeneron: raises 400 to 600
AllenJ: raises 810 to 1410 and is all-in
mikeneron: calls 690 and is all-in
Turn: 7:heart:
River: 6:club:
Showdown:
mikeneron: shows 5:spade: A:club: (a straight, Three to Seven)
AllenJ: shows A:heart: 8:club: (a pair of Aces)
mikeneron collected 2880 from pot
07-23-2007, 09:13 PM
bjsaust

I think you also add some leeway in there for a chance he's bluffing also. Given his style of play thats not out of the question.

I'm really stuck on what I'd do, but your maths seem solid.

I'm tempted to think I'd call because the guys probably frustrated me by now and I have TP and a gutshot dammit!
07-23-2007, 09:17 PM
bigspenda73

Raising the flop doesn't do anything good for you.
07-23-2007, 09:19 PM
bjsaust

Btw, against a guy playing like that, one move I use is to take the PF aggressor position off them and then c-bet as first to act. You could also just plain donk-bet occassionally if you want.

This guy was raising wide and high, I think I only played on hand he'd raised before now and had called/folded to a 3xBB raise and c-bet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button (t2280)
Hero (t720)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
Button raises to t80, Hero raises to t180, Button calls t100.

Flop: (t360) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t220, Button folds.

Final Pot: t360
07-23-2007, 09:23 PM
bjsaust

Spenda makes a point. That c/r flop move is more suited to a missed hand than a made hand. If you think you're ahead, let him try to double barrel you on the turn before making your move.
07-23-2007, 09:26 PM
mikeneron

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Raising the flop doesn't do anything good for you.

Why does raising the flop not do anything good for me...he could be making this play with a non-ace hand. Are you saying that I should just call his bet here and then see what he does on the turn to try and extract more chips from him? What if he fires again on the turn...do I assume then that he has an ace?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Btw, against a guy playing like that, one move I use is to take the PF aggressor position off them and then c-bet as first to act. You could also just plain donk-bet occassionally if you want.

This guy was raising wide and high, I think I only played on hand he'd raised before now and had called/folded to a 3xBB raise and c-bet.

I did do this a few times and took down those pots without contest.
07-23-2007, 09:30 PM
bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeneron

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Raising the flop doesn't do anything good for you.

Why does raising the flop not do anything good for me...he could be making this play with a non-ace hand

You just answered your own question.
07-23-2007, 09:34 PM
overflow

Raising does no good for you, because you gain nothing advantageous by doing it. Worse hands almost never call, every hand this villain could hold (Including A6) is calling here, you beat exactly one hand A2. The raise accomplishes nothing.
07-23-2007, 10:02 PM
bjsaust

Once the raise is done though, and opp pushes over, do you guys agree with the call?
07-23-2007, 10:17 PM
bigspenda73

quick math tells me we're just under 30% to win against Ax so it's close.
07-24-2007, 07:14 AM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Raising the flop doesn't do anything good for you.

You can't say that as a blanket statement, but I think you're right given what the OP said "I was just waiting to capitalize on this when I actually made a hand." If the OP had been playing aggressively check-raising a lot of flops, I'd actually like the idea of doing it again here hoping that his opponent is on tilt and goes all-in with nothing.

As played it's an easy call, you just can't fold for that price because you have the best hand sometimes (even if it's not very often).
07-24-2007, 07:49 AM
Geanosssss

Quote:

This guy either raised or folded from the button and he raised close to 70% of the hands so I put his raising range on Q8s+, any pocket pair, and any ace

If this guys been raising 70% like you said then his raising range is a lot looser than you stated. He could be raising with anything as far as 4-3s and 10-6o.
07-24-2007, 08:01 AM
Geanosssss

Quote:

Are you saying that I should just call his bet here and then see what he does on the turn to try and extract more chips from him?

Yes that is exactly what you should do.

Quote:

What if he fires again on the turn...do I assume then that he has an ace?

No, and thats a big 'if' anyway. Surely your just as likely to assume that hes bluffing than you are to assume that he has the ace.
07-24-2007, 08:16 AM
Geanosssss

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Once the raise is done though, and opp pushes over, do you guys agree with the call?

Your pretty sure your beat right now, the only way your winning is if your opponents bluffing (which I'd say theres about a 15% chance that hes doing so IMO). But folding leaves you with 690...not good.
So neither folding nor calling is looking particuarly good right now. But with the 4 dueces as outs and possibly the 3 remaining fives and the slight chance hes bluffing, I call. I dont like it and I know im behind but i dont really want to leave myself with 690 in chips.
07-24-2007, 09:14 AM
gingerwizard

The call seems fine as are your calculations. Spenda is right, the flop raise is bad and for the following reason:

It forces your opponent to play correctly. There are many hands that you beat that would 2nd barrel the turn if you don't raise the flop. So everytime one of those folds to your check raise, you lose money.