am i a donk for doing this?

I dont usually play much nl. I had been playing fairly tight and patiently when this hand came up
POKERSTARS GAME #11109718017: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/07/24 - 12:45:16 (ET)
Table 'Pandarus' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: arf919111 ($14.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Tophp IB ($32 in chips)
Seat 3: paulieGB ($50.35 in chips)
Seat 4: lemon7up ($20.80 in chips)
Seat 5: Patjeritzel ($25 in chips)
Seat 6: gillb06 ($28.05 in chips)
Seat 7: Ton321 ($11.05 in chips)
Seat 8: BoboSWE ($29.35 in chips)
Seat 9: sammy1981 ($10.25 in chips)
lemon7up: posts small blind $0.10
Patjeritzel: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ton321 [Kd 7d]
gillb06: calls $0.25
Ton321: calls $0.25
BoboSWE: folds
sammy1981: calls $0.25
arf919111: folds
Tophp IB: folds
paulieGB: raises $1.25 to $1.50
lemon7up: folds
Patjeritzel: calls $1.25
gillb06: calls $1.25
Ton321: calls $1.25
sammy1981: calls $1.25
*** FLOP *** [2d 6d Th]
Patjeritzel: bets $6
gillb06: folds
Ton321: raises $3.55 to $9.55 and is all-in
sammy1981: calls $8.75 and is all-in
paulieGB: folds
Patjeritzel: calls $3.55
*** TURN *** [2d 6d Th] [5h]
*** RIVER *** [2d 6d Th 5h] [Qc]
Tophp IB said, "oh oh sammy!!!!"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Patjeritzel: shows [Td Qd] (two pair, Queens and Tens)
Ton321: mucks hand
Patjeritzel collected $1.50 from side pot
sammy1981: mucks hand
Patjeritzel collected $32.20 from main pot
sammy1981 leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $35.45 Main pot $32.20. Side pot $1.50. | Rake $1.75
Board [2d 6d Th 5h Qc]
Seat 1: arf919111 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Tophp IB folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: paulieGB (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: lemon7up (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Patjeritzel (big blind) showed [Td Qd] and won ($33.70) with two pair, Queens and Tens
Seat 6: gillb06 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: Ton321 mucked [Kd 7d]
Seat 8: BoboSWE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: sammy1981 mucked [Ah 6h]

Obviously i need to learn how to play draws like this. How much pf should I have called before it becomes unprofitable?

You need to dump this preflop. You are UTG+! and should not be limping in with K7s, if you don't fold there, you should deffo be folding to the preflop raise.

On the flop you are not getting the correct PO to call (unless you have implied odds that someone else will call) and you have zero FE, so fold.

K7s is not a great hand from ep, but you did get great odds to play this hand, imo, after the raise was called by so many. i've read somewhere that you hit a flush draw about 10% of the time, and we know that you pair about 33% of the time. combine those (extremely roughly), and you may be around 35% to connect on this flop, but...

1) your 7 paired would be very weak, as it is not likely to be TP or even the best pair (surely, there is a pp in there calling).
2) your K paired has a weak kicker, and a better kicker (8, 9, T, J, Q) may not have RRed that pot pf.
3) so, you're really only looking for a flush draw...or something even more rare..like trips, two pair, flopped boat.

so, i would weigh the average at maybe 11-12% to hit something you can play. technically, that requires about 8.33-9 : 1 to call profitably.

theres my "technical" answer to your question, but its CRAP. why?

you have implied odds in the flush. look at the money at the table. most of the players at the table have you covered...so, if you hit your draw, and connect with the flush from there, you should expect to get paid off well...and being shorter-stacked, it should be easier to get all your chips in. so, imo, you have 4 callers going to the flop. its ok to take a shot here, but you are looking for a monster.

even at that, you have to be a little worried about the Ah (not that you'd fold when the flush hits, and someone pushes). just remember to fold to any serious aggression post flop w/o another caller to give you even remotely close to the odds you need...its not worth chasing in a heads up pot, imo. but, if you get the chance to triple up, i would gamble with the draw w/ 3+players showing interest after that flop.

which you had, but had no way of knowing the other guy would call based on your position. imo, i wouldnt call the flop bet (i push, too, since the flush draw hit...but i am not happy about it). when i am "forced to push over, i feel like i "trapped myself" in the hand pf.

its kind of a donkey hand that i would have prolly done the same thing with given the situation...just remember you may have had good odds of this being a big pot...and your draw hit, too...but, the raiser got serious and overbet the pot a bit...destroying odds to chase...forcing you to fold or push over if you wanted to continue since if you call, the money is going in anyway. you may have been able to spot that one coming with any read on the player. another thing to consider before jumping in is...how is the post flop action going to be? does THIS raiser like to bet hard or soft?

its just a bit aggressive and loose. kind of gambooling it up a bit. i wouldnt do that too often.

being shorter stacked, i would wait for something that could also make a straight before i played it pre-flop. K9s would be the lowest i would go.

sorry for the scatter-brained explanation, but i tried to cover thoughts to the "general" situation, too. i think thats where the lesson lies...how should i play the situation...and what can happen if i decide to play?

not just, "hey, i got K7s, i'll see a flop for a buck."

Use converter please.

Heee Hawww!

thanks for the replies. Whenever i have a flush draw it is tempting just to put too much money in even when the pot odds are not there.

If you are going to play short stacked you need to play tight. You don't have the chips to play hands that require implied odds. Having said that even full stacked I'd be dumping that hand in early position. Even if you hit you can't be that confident you have the best hand plus you will be out of position. It's going to be a loser long term. Although they get a bad press these days a starting hand chart by position is a good tool to get a feel for the kind of hands you should be playing as a beginner.

Don't like the flop shove because you may be drawing dead.

Limp calling EP with suited Aces may have +ve expectation at a loose table assuming you play well enough after the flop, but drawing to 2nd nuts so often smashes most of your implieds.

The only hands with a K in them that I play in EP are:
KK, AK, KQs.

Ill fold KQo and ill fold KJs without even thinking about it.

yes you are a donk for doing that

you are playing like a fish, just read some basics on odds and how to play draws and you will start doing better

no offense, just read some basics on the game =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gingerwizard

Don't like the flop shove because you may be drawing dead.

Limp calling EP with suited Aces may have +ve expectation at a loose table assuming you play well enough after the flop, but drawing to 2nd nuts so often smashes most of your implieds.

The only hands with a K in them that I play in EP are:
KK, AK, KQs.

Ill fold KQo and ill fold KJs without even thinking about it.

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i agree with you about possibly drawing dead, and playing too many K's oop, but..

can you ever fold the K-flush to aggression? i'm not saying drawing...just after it hits.

if not, why not bust this flop? you are in the hand already (we all agreed we shouldnt be, but we are), and you are shorty, and know you can triple up if you hit. is that a situation you let the fear of the A decide for you? or do you push anyway, and if you see the A say,

"thats poker. i should never have been in the hand."

just kinda playing "devil's advocate." :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gingerwizard

Don't like the flop shove because you may be drawing dead.

Limp calling EP with suited Aces may have +ve expectation at a loose table assuming you play well enough after the flop, but drawing to 2nd nuts so often smashes most of your implieds.

The only hands with a K in them that I play in EP are:
KK, AK, KQs.

Ill fold KQo and ill fold KJs without even thinking about it.

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i agree with you about possibly drawing dead, and playing too many K's oop, but..

can you ever fold the K-flush to aggression? i'm not saying drawing...just after it hits.

if not, why not bust this flop? you are in the hand already (we all agreed we shouldnt be, but we are), and you are shorty, and know you can triple up if you hit. is that a situation you let the fear of the A decide for you? or do you push anyway, and if you see the A say,

"thats poker. i should never have been in the hand."

just kinda playing "devil's advocate." :P

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But Chopper on the flop the pot is $7. The first guy bets $6 so the pot is $13 and you have $9.5 left. Your potential win at this point if you push is $16.5 (when the first guy calls you) and you need it to be more than $19 to break even. You have no way of knowing it players behind will call giving you the odds you need and the 1st player is never folding for another $3 into a $23 pot. So you are relying on getting called behind by someone who doesn't have a higher flush draw. Seems like a losing play to me unless I've figured things wrong?