KK, multiway.. push or fold flop?

-button isn't very good, so i'm likely ahead of him here
-no reads on BB, this is like his 5th hand at the table
-is this a standard fold/push over?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $206.47
UTG+1: $200.95
CO: $98.90
Button: $161.20
SB: $186.56
BB: $167.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with :kh: :ks:
Hero raises to $8, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: :3c: :4d: :2c: ($33, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $24, CO folds, Button calls, BB raises to $68, Hero ??

push and spike a K on the river.

BB's range: (two pair, set, straight, FD, pair+draw)
Button's range: (small overpair, A-x[pair on flop], set, straight)

Against BB's range...

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

61,380 games 0.005 secs 12,276,000 games/sec

Board: 2c 3c 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.575% 26.14% 01.08% 16042 660.00 { KhKs }
Hand 1: 65.425% 71.71% 01.08% 44018 660.00 { TT-99, 44-22, AcJc, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac8c, A5s, KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, 65s, 54s, 43s, A5o, 65o, 54o }




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you are slightly better than a 2:1 underdog. Add to this the possibility that Button could be trapping and i think this is a fold.


You could also call on the flop and get AI on the turn if:
1). Button doesn't call
2). Turn card is not an Ace, 4, 3, 2, 6, or Club.

However, that is probably like 18 cards though so the fact that the turn would be such a tricky spot makes me think folding on the flop would be best.

I think it's pretty close but since they are both like 75 BB it makes it an easier push.

Vi, why discount 55-88? I think an aggro 1/2 villain is reraising 88 on this board against a standard c-bet often enough also. I agree with Massimo that 75bbs stacks make this a push.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bode-ist

Vi, why discount 55-88? I think an aggro 1/2 villain is reraising 88 on this board against a standard c-bet often enough also. I agree with Massimo that 75bbs stacks make this a push.

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I didn't really think this looked like a 'standard c-bet'. I thought I showed a lot of strength with my hand, raising UTG and then betting hard OOP into 3 other players. I don't think many people would bet AKo, on this board, into this many players?

Given the strength I thought I was showing, I agree mostly with Vi's range, in that the worst hand that BB might have is the nut flush draw which I'm flipping with.

Maybe I'm wrong in narrowing his range, based on the strength that I THINK I'm conveying.

oh and not sure if this makes it more or less of a push, but this is a 1/2 pounds game, so generally plays more like 2/4.

I fold without reads on villian...
This is a situation where I generally will fold KK or AA on flop.
With 3 callers & people calling and check raising you on a low co-ordinated flop, 1 pair is soooo rarely the best hand.
As you said you have shown a lot of strength the way you you played & I don't see 88 or what have you making a move in this spot.
I dont see a lot of flush draws/1 pair hands doing this - I really think you're smoked or up against 13 outs min.

Push.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

I didn't really think this looked like a 'standard c-bet'. I thought I showed a lot of strength with my hand, raising UTG and then betting hard OOP into 3 other players. I don't think many people would bet AKo, on this board, into this many players?

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True. However, if one of them is bad and the other is unknown, and neither has a full stack, I wouldn't give them credit for figuring this out. With all the money allready in the pot I would say pushing is slightly +EV.

Fold. BB calls pre-flop with 22,33,44 and A5. And check-raises the flop with a set or straight. Its tough but youve only got one pair and your opponents play makes sense, it looks like he has a big hand here (bigger than yours). And you have the button to worry about.

I hate playing in fear of sets and flopped straights but sometimes you have to accept it, grind your teeth and fold.

imo this is exactly the situation in which ur going to stack someone with ur over pair... 3 or 4 ppl cold calling, someone has to turn sometihng... hard to judge this without knowing ur image and his image.... dunno why i have the feeling he has 67 flsuh+gutshot combo draw hehe.. that his raise makes me think he wants u to fold...but i dont play 200nl so i cant say....

this is very close imo. i think its a fold but im not sure how these games play exactly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce123

this is very close imo. i think its a fold but im not sure how these games play exactly

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I agree that this is a close spot, probably marginal EV either way.

As it turns out, I folded.

Button then PUSHED over BB's raise. So i'm thinking "Phew.. glad I folded"

BB calls.

Button has 66 (gross lol.. mind you if I called/pushed, he prob drops this)
BB has Ac8c for the nut flush draw, as expected