100NL: QQ with a A high flop

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08-03-2007, 05:52 PM
jimmy44

100NL: QQ with a A high flop

EverestPoker Game #1887383013: Table Moroni-8 - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:01:41 - 2007/08/02
Seat 1: jackevan ($98.50)
Seat 2: Bendavid2 ($117.15)
Seat 3: jimmy44a ($104.05)
Seat 4: annalux57 ($90.20)
Seat 5: CallingYou2 ($40.95)
Seat 6: AsiaFresh ($101.50)
Seat 7: rphkingloui ($102.20)
Seat 8: BVB_Ultra ($198.75)
Seat 9: landers ($147.55)
Seat 10: @9@9@ ($10.00)
annalux57 posts the small blind of $0.50
CallingYou2 posts the big blind of $1.00
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jimmy44a[http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qh.gif http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qc.gif]
AsiaFresh folds
rphkingloui calls $1.00
BVB_Ultra raises to $4.00
landers folds
@9@9@ folds
jackevan folds
Bendavid2 folds
jimmy44a raises to $14.00
annalux57 folds
CallingYou2 folds
rphkingloui folds
BVB_Ultra calls $10.00
*** FLOP *** [http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ad.gif http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2c.gif http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7c.gif] (pot: $30.5)
BVB_Ultra checks
jimmy44a checks
*** TURN *** [http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ad.gif http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2c.gif http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7c.gif] [http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jc.gif] (pot: $30.5)
BVB_Ultra checks
jimmy44a checks
*** RIVER *** [http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ad.gif http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2c.gif http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7c.gif http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jc.gif] [http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3h.gif]
BVB_Ultra bets $14.00
jimmy44a ????

villain was 14/6/0, but only over 30 hands at 100NL (he is something like 30/5.5/2 at 50NL).
Do you bet the turn to try and get the pot? Otherwise, villain can bet with a big number of hands on the river ...
08-03-2007, 05:55 PM
Trashcona

I cbet the flop here in a 3bet hand to rep at the very least a strong ace.
08-03-2007, 06:37 PM
pokerfan

checking behind was good pot control coz you didn't really want to play a big pot here without a big hand.
as played, i'd call his river bet given 1:3 pot odds but had some sick feeling.
In this situation, checking behind the second pair is much better than strong cb considering that villain might have us beat already.
08-03-2007, 06:43 PM
Fnord

Pay it off.
08-03-2007, 07:21 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trashcona

I cbet the flop here in a 3bet hand to rep at the very least a strong ace.

I don't see a good reason to cbet this flop.
08-04-2007, 12:01 AM
Deanglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trashcona

I cbet the flop here in a 3bet hand to rep at the very least a strong ace.

I don't see a good reason to cbet this flop.

I don't see why we shouldn't rep AK on the flop and shut down if called.
08-04-2007, 04:48 AM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanglow

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trashcona

I cbet the flop here in a 3bet hand to rep at the very least a strong ace.

I don't see a good reason to cbet this flop.

I don't see why we shouldn't rep AK on the flop and shut down if called.

I can see trying to rep AK here. I'm just so hesitant on these kinds of flops cuz I'm afraid of like every hand that calls.
08-04-2007, 05:53 AM
euphoricism

betting this flop forces villain to define his hand, as well as letting you get a free river card a large % of the time.

Checking gives you no information at all, sets up the "mathematical catastrophe" of letting villain draw for free when he might have called a bet, and the combined turn+river bet you end up calling when you check the flop and induce bluffs is almost always a larger net loss than just bet/folding the flop.

For those reasons, I bet here with QQ. I do not bet here with KK, in accordance with the famous thread by Gabe (i think it was gabe) who started an excellent thread on that very situation (KK on an A board)
08-04-2007, 09:00 AM
kmind

cbet that flop - pretty much for the reasons Euph mentioned.
08-04-2007, 12:03 PM
rubixstreub

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

For those reasons, I bet here with QQ. I do not bet here with KK, in accordance with the famous thread by Gabe (i think it was gabe) who started an excellent thread on that very situation (KK on an A board)

I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Do you have a link and could paraphrase?
08-04-2007, 02:08 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

For those reasons, I bet here with QQ. I do not bet here with KK, in accordance with the famous thread by Gabe (i think it was gabe) who started an excellent thread on that very situation (KK on an A board)

What's the difference between KK & QQ here?

PS - Here's that thread rubix.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=21766

And here is another
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=28142
08-04-2007, 05:59 PM
rubixstreub

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

What's the difference between KK & QQ here?

I'm guessing it's this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

How would you play QQ in this spot? JJ? There is an interesting little quirk KK has here that makes check/call correct.

Is it that overcards can't come and kill you? With QQ/JJ you could be way-ahead but fall way-behind on the next card... so you're almost forced to bet something. With KK you're going to stay ahead if you are right now.

In some of Gabe's hands in the 2nd thread he takes the same line with QQ, but with rainbow flops... so I can see why c-betting is more important in spots like this.

In the KK examples, I assume we don't care if the board has a flush draw because the only non-pairs that should be calling us are AKs and maybe AQs, both of which are already ahead.
08-04-2007, 07:20 PM
XTR1000

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

What's the difference between KK & QQ here?

QQ is one of 2 1/2 hands we check KK behind against to extract a testing bet on turn. If we play QQ the same way we rely on TT betting the turn to show profit.
08-05-2007, 04:13 AM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubixstreub

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

What's the difference between KK & QQ here?

I'm guessing it's this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

How would you play QQ in this spot? JJ? There is an interesting little quirk KK has here that makes check/call correct.

Is it that overcards can't come and kill you? With QQ/JJ you could be way-ahead but fall way-behind on the next card... so you're almost forced to bet something. With KK you're going to stay ahead if you are right now.

In some of Gabe's hands in the 2nd thread he takes the same line with QQ, but with rainbow flops... so I can see why c-betting is more important in spots like this.

In the KK examples, I assume we don't care if the board has a flush draw because the only non-pairs that should be calling us are AKs and maybe AQs, both of which are already ahead.

I don't think 3 outs (the 3 K's left) makes a big enough difference to have to bet with QQ. I also don't think a flush draw is enough of a concern either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XTR1000

QQ is one of 2 1/2 hands we check KK behind against to extract a testing bet on turn. If we play QQ the same way we rely on TT betting the turn to show profit.

I don't understand this.
08-05-2007, 08:05 AM
Miffed22001

turn is perhaps a bet, river is definitly a call.
Recalling iowa's thread, you should probably bet/fold this flop rather than check/call anywhere which is difficult with QQ on axx i know... just feels like spew
08-05-2007, 01:16 PM
XTR1000

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubixstreub

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

What's the difference between KK & QQ here?

I'm guessing it's this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

How would you play QQ in this spot? JJ? There is an interesting little quirk KK has here that makes check/call correct.

Is it that overcards can't come and kill you? With QQ/JJ you could be way-ahead but fall way-behind on the next card... so you're almost forced to bet something. With KK you're going to stay ahead if you are right now.

In some of Gabe's hands in the 2nd thread he takes the same line with QQ, but with rainbow flops... so I can see why c-betting is more important in spots like this.

In the KK examples, I assume we don't care if the board has a flush draw because the only non-pairs that should be calling us are AKs and maybe AQs, both of which are already ahead.

I don't think 3 outs (the 3 K's left) makes a big enough difference to have to bet with QQ. I also don't think a flush draw is enough of a concern either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XTR1000

QQ is one of 2 1/2 hands we check KK behind against to extract a testing bet on turn. If we play QQ the same way we rely on TT betting the turn to show profit.

I don't understand this.

regarding gabe´s thread, aren´t we checking KK behind in these situations to get a bet from weaker hands like QQ/JJ, who would fold to a flop bet? If villians range is cut down to AK, JJ+ (TT), and there is a chance to fold out KK here, we should bet, b/c FE against KK makes up for the times JJ would bet turn after we checked flop.
08-05-2007, 01:36 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by XTR1000

regarding gabe´s thread, aren´t we checking KK behind in these situations to get a bet from weaker hands like QQ/JJ, who would fold to a flop bet? If villians range is cut down to AK, JJ+ (TT), and there is a chance to fold out KK here, we should bet, b/c FE against KK makes up for the times JJ would bet turn after we checked flop.

Oh you mean the JJ would bet because the J came on the turn? If so then that's results oriented. Anyways I can see your point now about FE vs. KK. In the KK examples a worse hand always folds to the flop bet and a better hand always calls/raises. This is not so with QQ. The question now is...does making KK fold make up for the times when your bet is called/raised by Ax/sets and when worse hands bluff at the turn and check the river?
08-05-2007, 03:53 PM
Chopper

to me, thats a slow played A or AA that just got scared of the flush...and decided you didnt bet the flush, so, why not get something off this hand with a 1/2 pot river bet.

he called your cold 3bet smooth pf. high liklihood of an A. i'm happy to check it down and pay it off. i have the J beat, and it may bet that tentatively on the river, too.

but i am not surprised to see the A or better yet, AA.

30 hands or not...if thats your read, what the hell do you think a 14/6 is calling a 3bet with pf to a $30 pot?
08-06-2007, 06:50 AM
gingerwizard

Checking behind flop is assuming we are way ahead or way behind. This falls down thanks to the club draw on board. We get calls from the draw and we don't want to give away free cards.

The KK check behind is for dry boards (and importantly KK because of the lack of scray free cards).

I bet the flop here because 2 clubs will call. When the turn lands I would be done as now I am way behind given a flop call.

As played the river is a call as im sure you know. The reason you check these behind is to potentially not scare away those hands you beat from bluffing the river. Why set up a bluff catch situation and fold anyway?
08-06-2007, 02:32 PM
martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

Checking behind flop is assuming we are way ahead or way behind. This falls down thanks to the club draw on board. We get calls from the draw and we don't want to give away free cards.

The KK check behind is for dry boards (and importantly KK because of the lack of scray free cards).

I bet the flop here because 2 clubs will call. When the turn lands I would be done as now I am way behind given a flop call.

Flush draws aren't usually a big concern in HU 3bet pots.
08-06-2007, 05:13 PM
Chopper

no, but you would be slightly worried about AK :club: or maybe AT :club:. i cant see any AX :club: playing this pot based on pf action.

problem is: they already have you beat, and surely would have bet the flop and/or turn. so, they are out.

baby flushes...no worries, they arent calling your 3bet pf, imo.

i still see AA, AK.
08-07-2007, 04:41 AM
jimmy44

I wanted to bet the turn if no scare cards came and was checked to. I had the feeling he had something like AKc or AQc. However, on the turn I did not beat much (lost to Ax, AA, KK, JJ or flush (I could eventually make KK fold and Ax (except AJ)) and won against TT/99). He could have checked the turn with a flush to trap, then bets 1/2 pot on the river to try and get something from me ... or do you think his 1/2 river bet is more often a bluff then a good hand?
08-07-2007, 05:43 AM
gingerwizard

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

Checking behind flop is assuming we are way ahead or way behind. This falls down thanks to the club draw on board. We get calls from the draw and we don't want to give away free cards.

The KK check behind is for dry boards (and importantly KK because of the lack of scray free cards).

I bet the flop here because 2 clubs will call. When the turn lands I would be done as now I am way behind given a flop call.

Flush draws aren't usually a big concern in HU 3bet pots.

Guess you've not played FR on everest then