Pushing AA-KK on the flop

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08-29-2007, 03:03 PM
sarbox68

Pushing AA-KK on the flop

Have been logging 1K hands a day at $2NL FR (12K hands so far) so this question is specifically related to that. However, there's a part B that carries over to $10NL.

Part A:
Assuming I don't get the oppty to push PF as a 3-bet, and assuming HU on the flop... I'm pushing with AA or KK on the flop under the following criteria:
- I'm bet into by villain (pretty much any size bet, including a push)
- My initial 1/2 PS bet is raised by villain
- The flop didn't 1) pair the board, 2) present 3 connectors or suited, 3) two broadway cards (trying to avoid being dead to two pair with somone running AQ-AT or KQ-KT)

With the stacks inherent to $2NL (and any decent PF action) pushing seems the right alternative to any other meaningful raise as I'm going to be pot-committed or have villain covered anyhow. Oh, and assume no reads. These tables turn over way too much to get a whole lot that's meaningful... and just about everyone seems to be running 35+ anyway...

Does this make sense for $2NL?

BTW... 11 out of 14 times doing this so far I've lost... to made sets, two pair, flushes and one wierd-ass inside straight draw dealio. I'm asking the question 'cause I know the sample's too small to be relevant and I won't have a better view until around 150K hands.

Part B:
I don't see this as making sense for $10NL because of more deep stacks and slightly more aware play. If I'm significantly re-raised or pushed at on the flop, I'm liable to fold with AA-KK only as I'm assuming more of a made hand (set, two pair, etc). I realize I may lose out to QQ-TT overs but the odds seem a little more stacked against me. It's either get it all-in PF, or be much less willing to push it unimproved post-.

Does this make sense?
08-29-2007, 05:54 PM
spoonitnow

I'm not sure why you would want to just shove with an overpair on the flop in 95% of cases.
08-29-2007, 06:15 PM
sarbox68

Given the criteria and flop texture... I'm bet into for around a 2/3 pot-sized bet+ OR I lead out with a c-bet for 2/3 pot-sized and am raised.

If I just call, I'm going to see one more street with only 2 outs to improve. So my hand prolly isn't going to meaningfully change. My overpair is now weaker.

So that leaves fold or raise. I don't want to just fold. And in most cases raising (or re-raising) meaningfully is pretty much going to put me well on the way all-in.

For example FR w/ 4 limpers, I PFR for.16 and one caller makes the pot .38. Villain bets in to me for .30 on the flop, standard raise would put me in for .90 so I've already got 1.06 in the pot. Assuming he checks to me on the turn, I'm betting .50 so I'm pretty much all-in regardless. If he bets into me on the turn, I'm all-in if I'm going to raise and don't have enough of a stack to get much fold equity out of it at that point. Plus my AA-KK is one street weaker. The other choice of C/F or calling down on the turn doesn't appeal much either.

So my thought process is, given these specific criteria, my two best +EV choices are fold or push. I can't fold on the type of flop described so pushing is better than calling (or a regular raising line which is going to get me most of where'd I'd be by the turn with an AI anyway, but without the immediate fold equity...)

That's the thought process anyhoo...
08-29-2007, 06:42 PM
spoonitnow

In the example you give, when villain donks 0.30 into you on the flop, you want to raise enough to give him incorrect odds to call, but small enough that you will induce him to call incorrectly. This really varies flop-to-flop but for discussion's sake let's say in the example you gave the board was Q92 with two hearts and you hold AA without the Ah. If you immediately just push over the raise, you're going to get called by the drawing hands a lot less. Sometimes it's cool to just push over a raise on the flop depending on stack sizes and the board, but 100bb deep in the scenario you just described doesn't usually fall under one of those times.

I'm trying to type and 12-table at the same time, so sorry if I'm not making sense.
08-29-2007, 07:00 PM
sarbox68

Daaammn dude.... posting AND 12-tabling... thas extra impressive! :)

Missing the extra value on the turn and river is definitely an issue. 90% of the losses mentioned above were made hands by the turn... and especially sets are hard for me to ID in the above type of scenarios. If I'm understanding you correctly tho', the extra value I can get from the turn & river of the boards I win at SD is necessary to help offset the losses I'm going to take from the draws that hit or the flop-made hands that I can't get a read on (i.e. sets or dude calling my PF R w/ 97o and flopping 6T8o)
08-29-2007, 07:08 PM
spoonitnow

If I understand you correctly here, then yes.

Basically, you're going to get stacked by a flopped set however you play it, but against drawing hands and top pair hands you have a chance to extract value, and overbetting the pot too hard extracts less.
08-29-2007, 07:38 PM
Unibomber14

Re: Pushing AA-KK on the flop

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

- The flop didn't 1) pair the board, 2) present 3 connectors or suited, 3) two broadway cards (trying to avoid being dead to two pair with somone running AQ-AT or KQ-KT)

Chances are, at 2nl (or even 10nl), you are possibly facing a draw of some sort (possibly w/ TP). Maybe a lower PP, or TPanyK getting drastically overplayed. I'm usually willing to push here at microstakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

BTW... 11 out of 14 times doing this so far I've lost... to made sets, two pair, flushes and one wierd-ass inside straight draw dealio. I'm asking the question 'cause I know the sample's too small to be relevant and I won't have a better view until around 150K hands.

You'll never have enough hands at this level to come to a real conclusion. At least I hope not. Just keep playing hard and aggresive, and you know you'll crush 'em every time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Part B:
I don't see this as making sense for $10NL because of more deep stacks and slightly more aware play. If I'm significantly re-raised or pushed at on the flop, I'm liable to fold with AA-KK only as I'm assuming more of a made hand (set, two pair, etc). I realize I may lose out to QQ-TT overs but the odds seem a little more stacked against me. It's either get it all-in PF, or be much less willing to push it unimproved post-.

There really (in my experience) is not that much difference in the play at these levels. I think that at 10nl, they are still overplaying the same crap hands as at 2nl. Aggro play is still gonna win $ overall.
08-29-2007, 11:33 PM
daven

AA unimproved is only a pair. Think you're going to about 50-50 win some small-ish pots (only rarely will a hand you beat call you for their whole stack, even at these levels) and lose some stacks = net loss. In these situations it is worth stepping outside the push-fold mentality. Post some hands. Good luck.
08-30-2007, 04:15 AM
Anosmic

What other than AA do you play this way?

If it's not a number of hands you're just giving away information.

It's $2NL it's the easiest game with the least to lose, try playing some real ABC poker now while it'll cost less to iron out the problems.
08-30-2007, 10:36 AM
Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anosmic

What other than AA do you play this way?

If it's not a number of hands you're just giving away information.

It's $2NL it's the easiest game with the least to lose, try playing some real ABC poker now while it'll cost less to iron out the problems.

well put.

sarbox,

where i admire you for focusing on fundamentals in a $2 game, i gotta tell you...no one else down there is respecting their money.

this puts YOU at a bit of a disadvantage, imo. if you are playing "correctly" by taking away odds, only betting 3/4 to psb on various streets, 3betting with strong hands pf, etc, then you are going to see a ton of bad beats. it comes with the territory of betting smaller than necessary for the stakes...you let all the crap in, and inevitably it will catch.

if you get AA or KK, i am not as worried about a "read" down there. i am not worried about odds, etc. i am trying to get it in ASAP.

its 2 friggin dollars! i dont mean that in a condescending tone, but for most people its barely real money...and plays that way.

play like you would for play money. when you flop a solid hand, try to get it in. when you complete your monster, push it. when you get JJ+, AQ+ pf, i would almost push those straight away in position. when you have the big stack at the table, USE IT. start to bully people off anything they arent willing to push. you have a draw to the nuts...push that short stack with a buck fifty in...right away.

obviously, this isnt "textbook" advice for other games. its play money strategy. teasing the odds and valuebetting isnt going to win you as much money as pushing powerhouses at this level...because you will get called here. at higher levels, people know where the fold button is.

you may think of it as "learning NL," but a lot of your opponents are thinking of it as, "i dropped $20 into this site...its friday night...i can screw up 10 times, and im only out a few drinks at the bar...F-it, you cant push me around, you bluffer, you. I CALL with my A-high, jerkwad!!"

save the "learning" for 10NL or 25NL where people respect their monies a bit more (you could argue 10NL is play money). and, just get up here as fast as you can.
08-30-2007, 10:51 AM
Rondavu

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

If I understand you correctly here, then yes.

Basically, you're going to get stacked by a flopped set however you play it, but against drawing hands and top pair hands you have a chance to extract value, and overbetting the pot too hard extracts less.

Well stated
08-30-2007, 02:37 PM
Kagey

Completely agree Chopper. People really don't care at these stakes. Bet your big hands, 3-bet your big hands, try to find out the amount what will get you one caller. AA etc. will get paid off by all kinds of junk, but you will get bad beat, however I wouldn't push AA or any other cards for that matter unless you get 3-bet( which is rare at these levels). People will stack off with a TPNK, SPWK, 1 overcard if you let them see the flop.

However AA makes up a really small proportion of your cards, and I would suggest getting 200 together or better still 500 and playing 10nl or 25nl where you can learn ABC poker, from your posts you sound easily capable of beating these levels.
08-30-2007, 04:18 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

this puts YOU at a bit of a disadvantage, imo. if you are playing "correctly" by taking away odds, only betting 3/4 to psb on various streets, 3betting with strong hands pf, etc, then you are going to see a ton of bad beats. it comes with the territory of betting smaller than necessary for the stakes...you let all the crap in, and inevitably it will catch.

I'm not sure why you insist "letting all the crap in" is a bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

if you get AA or KK, i am not as worried about a "read" down there. i am not worried about odds, etc. i am trying to get it in ASAP.

its 2 friggin dollars! i dont mean that in a condescending tone, but for most people its barely real money...and plays that way.

You shouldn't be worried about "getting it in ASAP" but instead be worried about making the best plays to get the most value from your hands. Open pushing every time you have a big pair doesn't accomplish this the vast majority of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

play like you would for play money. when you flop a solid hand, try to get it in. when you complete your monster, push it. when you get JJ+, AQ+ pf, i would almost push those straight away in position. when you have the big stack at the table, USE IT. start to bully people off anything they arent willing to push. you have a draw to the nuts...push that short stack with a buck fifty in...right away.

Most of this is horrible advice, I'm not really sure where to begin. I mean seriously, you're advising someone to push into a 75 bb stack anytime they have a draw to the nuts because you're implying that people won't call, but yet you turn around and say you should open push your big pairs preflop because people will call. It's bad advice, and on top of that the argument for it contradicts itself pretty hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

obviously, this isnt "textbook" advice for other games. its play money strategy. teasing the odds and valuebetting isnt going to win you as much money as pushing powerhouses at this level...because you will get called here. at higher levels, people know where the fold button is.

you may think of it as "learning NL," but a lot of your opponents are thinking of it as, "i dropped $20 into this site...its friday night...i can screw up 10 times, and im only out a few drinks at the bar...F-it, you cant push me around, you bluffer, you. I CALL with my A-high, jerkwad!!"

save the "learning" for 10NL or 25NL where people respect their monies a bit more (you could argue 10NL is play money). and, just get up here as fast as you can.

Look, I know you mean well and I don't mean any offense with my reply here, but it's pretty obvious OP is trying to get used to NLHE so he/she can move up in stakes. Their purpose is better served by trying to develop good habits than to push hands "just because you'll get called."

I know there are a lot of action junkies at micro-stakes, but you don't beat them by becoming one.