No way you fold... right?

Just trying to head off my tilt here.

Full stacked 50NL, villain has a history of making hero-calls against me. Big, big hero calls against me. And winning. He's a 30/20 type.

Dont have the HH with me at the moment so

hero has k:c: k:s: OTB

Villain makes it $2 in MP
Hero raises to $7

Flop: T 8 4 all in :h:'s

Vill checks
Hero bets $10 into ~$14
Villain check minraises
Hero shoves

OBV you know what happened, but thats super standard right. I think if it was any other villain I wouldnt even be posting this, but I kinda sorta want to punch this guy in the face.

Err, real marginal I think. What would make this standard? Maybe because of the minraise?

shove the flop

I don't fold in these spots but that's cause I suck.

standard

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

shove the flop

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what exactly does this accomplish?

After the c/r, i think sets and flush draws/ pair + flush draw make up the majority of his range.


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

22,770 games 0.005 secs 4,554,000 games/sec

Board: Th 8h 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.383% 40.79% 00.59% 9288 135.00 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 58.617% 58.02% 00.59% 13212 135.00 { QcQh, QdQh, QhQs, JcJh, JdJh, JhJs, TT, 88, KhQh, AcKh, AdKh, AhKc, AhKd, AhKs, AsKh, AcQh, AdQh, AhQc, AhQd, AhQs, AsQh }


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You have to shove over the check/raise. However, given your note that he likes to make big thin calls, i prefer checking the flop and betting non heart turn and rivers. His calling range on later streets would also be wider than his c/r'ing range on the flop. For example, he may look you up with hands like 9-9/J-J no heart (Ah-K/Qx?!) for stacks on the river if he is convinced you are betting with a heart draw that missed.

Without reads/notes i think betting the flop is best, but since villain likes to make big thin calls we can get bets in on the turn/river with substantially better equity. If a heart falls on the turn/river i would be trying to get to showdown as cheaply as possible - maybe a very small value bet on the river since we are IP. Note that a flush completes on later streets only about 1 time in 3, so we can use this line for >EV most of the time, and have to check to showdown/fold much less often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

shove the flop

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I have to ask... do you really mean shove $40+ into a $14 pot after villain checks to us? That seems like a good way to only get called by hands that are beating us.

checking behind is alright here sometimes

Standard get that in there foo.

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Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

shove the flop

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I have to ask... do you really mean shove $40+ into a $14 pot after villain checks to us? That seems like a good way to only get called by hands that are beating us.

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I think its pretty obvious he means shove over the c/r.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

shove the flop

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I have to ask... do you really mean shove $40+ into a $14 pot after villain checks to us? That seems like a good way to only get called by hands that are beating us.

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um, read the description about the player.

wtf KK in reraised pot with no Ace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

shove the flop

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I have to ask... do you really mean shove $40+ into a $14 pot after villain checks to us? That seems like a good way to only get called by hands that are beating us.

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um, read the description about the player.

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I did. He makes stupid/hero calls. Sounds like he might look us up with some junk like TJ or 89. That was why I asked the question in the first place.

I'm assuming if we open shove the flop we are getting called by a lot of hands that we beat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

shove the flop

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I have to ask... do you really mean shove $40+ into a $14 pot after villain checks to us? That seems like a good way to only get called by hands that are beating us.

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I think its pretty obvious he means shove over the c/r.

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Nope, I meant open-shove

An open shove sounds good, but against hands like JhTo it's literally a coin flip, and he's correct in making the call. If he has hand like Tx or 8x with no heart, I think there's a better chance to get all his money with a two stage bet.

i usually call and shove a non heart turn. Noone else like this?

I do, I do. That's what I was thinking to. Villain only gets 20% chance to suck out that way.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

i usually call and shove a non heart turn. Noone else like this?

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I don't like this. If he has a Jh10 type hand and an over non-heart comes, he probably folds. If he just has a 10 with no heart, and a heart comes (and we still plan on pushing) on the turn, it is a scare card and he folds. If he has the naked Ah he folds the turn unimproved. I think we should get it in on the flop when we are most likely to get called, and most likely way ahead or slightly ahead the naked Ah. I like the way it's played.

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

I think we should get it in on the flop when we are most likely to get called, and most likely way ahead or slightly ahead the naked Ah. I like the way it's played.

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The problem is that there is no hand that we are "way ahead" of on this flop that wants to get it in with us. If he just has the A:heart: then he has close to 45% equity already (12 outs). If he has a JT type hand then hes folding to a push but may call another bet later in the hand if a safe card comes off.

head asplode

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Originally Posted by Lukie

head asplode

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which bit?

I like pelions line because hes betting a strong heart again on the turn, and im assuming we get it all in on any non heart turn so this forces him into a call where hes way behind. if hes way ahead were pretty fucked anyway because after we call we cant ever fold to a non heart.

big spenda you cant be serious

i also dont think theres anything wrong with how you played it that just sucks

i dont like checking behind because we give hands that wouldnt call a Cbet a chance to win the hand like any pp with a heart.

Tell me why shoving's wrong against this player and I'll delete my post.

alright i guess i somewhat take back what i said.
we cant have this convorsation because his read of the player is so misleading. but my interpretation was that they were standard big hero calls, like calling river bluffs and turn semibluffs with maginal hands. i say you cant be serious because shoving is such a nonstandard play with a hand that has some value. so many hands are calling a C-bet that dont call a shove so we lose value and rarely get a hero call made because the play is so unorthodox.