A-10s BvB 400NL

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10-03-2007, 09:23 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

A-10s BvB 400NL

Villain is Bouge_Todd, who seems after about 150 hands to be an aggressive TAG. I liked checking the turn, but comments on that are welcome as well. What is your plan now that he bet?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($711.45)
MP ($667.70)
Button ($234)
Hero ($638.15)
BB ($389)

Preflop: Hero is SB with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ac.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/tc.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $16, BB calls $12.

Flop: ($32) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5d.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/td.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $24, BB calls $24.

Turn: ($80) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qs.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $74, Hero…
10-03-2007, 09:40 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

I forgot to mention that I have no idea whether or not he will make big bluffs. And my image is very loose and aggressive.
10-03-2007, 11:04 PM
Genitruc

I think this is a great spot to turn your hand into a bluff and CR.

It's hard to put villain on a strong hand that doesn't raise the flop and this is a great place for him to float.

type "float on this" and RAZE
10-03-2007, 11:08 PM
dsaxton

Betting the turn is most likely better than checking.
10-03-2007, 11:09 PM
|~|ypermegachi

i woulda just bet again around $50 and go from there. the only reason i could think of why you would prefer checking is if you think he floats often and see it as an opportunity to make some money from his bluff....and since you don't have an idea if he'll make big bluffs, i think you're better off leading.

as played, i fold.
10-03-2007, 11:23 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

as played, i fold.

Why?
10-03-2007, 11:36 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

yeah i think flop floats make up the vast majority of his range. There aren't really any made hands that he wouldn't raise on the flop, except maybe 10-9/J-10/Q-10.

i think check/raising the turn is the best option once i check, but bet/folding may be the best line.

This hand makes me think that sometimes varying my play by floating with flush draws IP and raising a turn bet on a scare card would be good against opponents who regularly fire two barrels.

I couldn't float FD's IP on Ace/King high flops though, since there aren't a lot of non draw completing scare cards on these flops. The lower and more connected the flop is, the better because if the board is super connected (but no draws have completed) overpairs will really want to felt on the flop and my raise may get me blown out of the pot.
10-03-2007, 11:52 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Turn: ($80) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qs.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $74, Hero calls $74.

River: ($228) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/9s.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $226, Hero calls $226.

Final Pot: $680

BB shows 6s 7s for the backdoored flush. nice hand by him.

check/call < check/raise

I don't know why i decided to start taking a passive line on the turn. I won't do it again in a spot like this though (OOP w/ weak made hand on drawy board against smart aggro opponent)
10-03-2007, 11:57 PM
Genitruc

i don't think you played it badly

do you really think he's shutting down if like a :8c: hits the river?
10-04-2007, 12:01 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

i don't think you played it badly

do you really think he's shutting down if like a :8c: hits the river?

it's an easy call as long as the river isn't a diamond, as you know. I think he bets any river except a 10 maybe.

i think there are so many drawing hands possible on the turn and a ton of river cards that potentially connect with one that i probably get more value by typing 'float on this' :wink:
10-04-2007, 12:09 AM
Ash256

Do you reckon Villain played well?
10-04-2007, 12:11 AM
zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

it's an easy call as long as the river isn't a diamond

I actually think a diamond is an easier river call than a spade (honestly trying not to be results-oriented). He's raising the flop a lot with a flush draw and occasionally checking behind the turn if he flat calls the flop (usually betting though). People never put opps on bd flushes, so his river bet is less likely to be a bluff when the spade hits imo.
10-04-2007, 12:14 AM
|~|ypermegachi

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

as played, i fold.

Why?

because i'd feel awful calling down like how OP ended up doing, and pushing turns our good hand into a bluff.
10-04-2007, 01:08 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

it's an easy call as long as the river isn't a diamond

I actually think a diamond is an easier river call than a spade (honestly trying not to be results-oriented). He's raising the flop a lot with a flush draw and occasionally checking behind the turn if he flat calls the flop (usually betting though). People never put opps on bd flushes, so his river bet is less likely to be a bluff when the spade hits imo.

good point about the diamond not being as scary of a river as i thought. I assume then that we should be check/calling virtually any river.

Would you have taken the same line? Or do you almost 100% bet/fold the turn? Bet/call?

I think villain played the hand very well.
10-04-2007, 01:54 AM
zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Would you have taken the same line? Or do you almost 100% bet/fold the turn? Bet/call?

I think it's close on the turn between bet/call and check/call. I lean towards check/call because after the flop his range consists of mostly pairs, weaker tens, draws (diamonds discounted) and air. You're getting very little value from that range if you bet, so you're only doing it to charge draws. But if you check, draws will often bet themselves, as will air and some low pairs.

I don't autocall any river though. I would lean toward c/fold'ing to a psb on a total blank river > 7, 4, 2 > a spade river > a diamond river. The idea being that he has to make a credible bluff, so the less credible the holding he's repping, the more likely you should be to believe him.

Your river decision was tough, and I've seen results so it's tough to comment now.

This is all assuming he's a good player, and I seem to remember isf or massimo posting a hand with this guy and saying he was...
10-04-2007, 04:01 AM
sauce123

Vi- this is an ugly spot- I think check/calling turn is by faaar ur best line.

river play is extremely difficult- a blocking bet isnt awful here at all against many opponents
10-04-2007, 04:02 AM
sauce123

like 135
10-04-2007, 01:22 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

Vi- this is an ugly spot- I think check/calling turn is by faaar ur best line.

river play is extremely difficult- a blocking bet isnt awful here at all against many opponents

why no likey a turn bet/fold sauce?
10-04-2007, 01:55 PM
Numbr2intheWorld

Bet/folding kinda sucks. He can raise there with a lot of draws since you're betting light there (two barrel bluffs etc.), and this player is capable of doing this. I don't mind a c/r, since your a semi unknown and he's a reg, he'll probably assume it's really strong.
10-04-2007, 02:01 PM
gabe

bet the turn FOR VALUE
10-04-2007, 02:14 PM
Numbr2intheWorld

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

bet the turn FOR VALUE

Do you call/shove over a raise though?
10-04-2007, 02:25 PM
gabe

id fold to a raise (and wouldnt expect a raise much)

people call down with 77 56 JT etc so gotta bet
10-04-2007, 04:11 PM
dsaxton

If he's betting the turn every time you check, then check-raising all-in might be your best line. Check to induce a bet from a hand you beat, then raise all-in to protect the pot and avoid any awkwardness on the river.

However, without much information on his play, I'd just bet it.
10-04-2007, 04:56 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

id fold to a raise (and wouldnt expect a raise much)

people call down with 77 56 JT etc so gotta bet

this was much of my reasoning for bet/fold. If he floated or called with a monster then we get raised here lots and lots. But second best hands, mid pairs, tp on flop but lower kicker etc will still call the turn
Also, dont we need to bet here for when we actually bet the flop with overs and caught the turn for deception/value anyway?
10-04-2007, 06:52 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

it seems like anything besides open folding/check folding on the turn has some merit.

The problem is that good players have recommended all 3 options (check/call, check/raise, bet/fold).

Bet/folding
1). Value from some weaker hands (10-x). These hands may also call a river bet on a non diamond river (no one figures for the backdoor :wink: )
2). Discourage opponent from bluffing us OOP on scary board when we are holding a vulnerable hand.

Check/calling
1). Induce a bluff from our opponent that he will likely continue on the river. We stand to win a very big pot and given his turn range and high aggression (=high bluff frequency?) it's possibly the most profitable play when it succeeds.

- Is the river bet sizing by villain very important to consider (i am w/ out reads on villains bet sizing)?
- I don't like bet/folding since we don't allow villain to bluff the river, and lose a large blocking bet when he raises (though it's an easy fold since we are beat probably 100% of the time) . I can't think of worse hands that call a river bet.
- This line makes for the most complicated hand. I think even if it is the most +EV, i could take "easier" lines and not make a big mistake.

Check/raising
1). Induce a smaller bluff from our opponent that we can snap off before any draws complete on the river
2). If called, the only better hand we are facing is Q-10. I don't think he will call a check/raise here without more than 9 outs since he wouldn't even be getting 2:1 to call. In fact, i can't think of any hands besides Q-10 that make up his likely calling range to a turn check/raise, and WAY more hands will bet the turn when checked to.

What other factors are you guys considering?
10-04-2007, 09:48 PM
Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

***exhaustive list of everything you need to consider***

What other factors are you guys considering?

lol @ "other factors"... maybe you should consider the weather, or roll a 3-sided die?
10-04-2007, 10:51 PM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

***exhaustive list of everything you need to consider***

What other factors are you guys considering?

lol @ "other factors"... maybe you should consider the weather, or roll a 3-sided die?

\

If that's all the important information, then i still can't pick a favorite.
10-05-2007, 12:05 AM
Genitruc

yup it s a cool spot
10-05-2007, 12:19 AM
Alexos

I think I like betting turn more than c/r...I don't c/r my overpairs here because I dont want it to be checked through on that board.

So we bet turn for value and protection. Theres a decent change he calls with worse, and I don't think we're getting raised by worse hands except maybe combo draws with spades (Would he have raised here if you bet?) I think diamond draws would generally raise flop.
10-05-2007, 12:33 AM
Genitruc

deleted by me cuz of THC overdose

2nd edit : I agree that bet-bet is a little better than CR (check-call is o.k. too if we think he's float-betting turn with a huge range).

In this particular hand though having checked turn I think CR is a little better than C/C
10-05-2007, 12:37 AM
Alexos

ya but we're assuming he will bet here, okay so i guess c/r is fine vs players who have balanced floating ranges on turn (bet with air, Qx,Tx,draws) I dont want it to get checked through....but will he bet 77-88 here? not sure...

If you have air here will you c/r, or will you turn cbet a scare card like the Q? Personally I cbet again, but maybe you c/r which makes c/r fine
10-05-2007, 12:45 AM
Genitruc

my god turn would be such a sick card to raise a 2-barrel

think of all the hands that an aggro will be 2-barreling here. AK AJ KJ J9 QJ AQ JJ KQ...

How many of them can stand a raise on the turn?
10-05-2007, 08:40 AM
kisrapi

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Would you have taken the same line? Or do you almost 100% bet/fold the turn? Bet/call?

I think it's close on the turn between bet/call and check/call. I lean towards check/call because after the flop his range consists of mostly pairs, weaker tens, draws (diamonds discounted) and air. You're getting very little value from that range if you bet, so you're only doing it to charge draws. But if you check, draws will often bet themselves, as will air and some low pairs.

And what about little PP-s, 55 or 33 dont u think this hands is in his range too? And what about his play with this...he slowplays on flop, and wanna check-raises on turn, but u check
10-05-2007, 05:27 PM
Miffed22001

opp definitly calls a flop bet with 88 and then has a decision to make when the queen flops. Thats just one example.
10-06-2007, 03:10 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

lol rematch? same villain, and it's BvB! (i think he wants position on me... uh oh i sux)

btw i decided to check, feeling more confident that he would fire two barrels into me, and i wasn't as sure that he couldn't have been slowplaying me from the flop.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($392)
MP ($615.05)
CO ($388)
Button ($834.35)
Hero ($447.30)
BB ($429.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
4 folds, Hero raises to $16, BB calls $12.

Flop: ($32) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $24, BB calls $24.

Turn: ($80) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $62, Hero calls $62.

River: ($204) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Final Pot: $204

Todd_Bouge showed 6h-8h. lol he almost backdoored again!
10-06-2007, 03:13 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

opp definitly calls a flop bet with 88 and then has a decision to make when the queen flops. Thats just one example.

i would expect an aggro TAG to 3bet mid pairs IP in a BvB situation. So i thought a float from a hand with more showdown value would be discounted somewhat in the hand from my OP.
10-06-2007, 03:14 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

my god turn would be such a sick card to raise a 2-barrel

think of all the hands that an aggro will be 2-barreling here. AK AJ KJ J9 QJ AQ JJ KQ...

How many of them can stand a raise on the turn?

i 100% agree with this.
10-06-2007, 03:39 AM
Alexos

wait so u took the same line, again?

lol
10-06-2007, 09:02 AM
Alexos

would have been so sick if he hits again and u pay him off hehe

i guess he checked since had some showdown value this time
10-06-2007, 12:44 PM
zook

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

wait so u took the same line, again?

lol

I liked his line the first time :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

i guess he checked since had some showdown value this time

And he knows hero is a passive station :D