AQo in the BB vs limper ($100NL, PP)

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10-17-2007, 10:32 PM
donkbee

AQo in the BB vs limper ($100NL, PP)

No reads, no stats. Just fold the flop? Let's say I don't fold the flop (like the hand shows). Just push the turn?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($121.53)
SB ($98.64)
Hero ($179.38)
UTG ($88.24)

Preflop: Hero is BB with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qs.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ad.gif.
1 fold, Button calls $1, SB completes, Hero raises to $5.5, Button calls $5, SB folds.

Flop: ($13) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ah.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4d.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2d.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $11, Button raises to $38, Hero calls $27.

Turn: ($89) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qd.gif (2 players)
Hero pushes (villain has ~$72 behind)
10-17-2007, 10:35 PM
Fnord

Re: AQo in the BB vs limper ($100NL, PP)

Quote:

Originally Posted by courtiebee

No reads, no stats.

This is a disturbing trend. Re-consider buying in full.

That said, try to figure out the max you can raise here pre-flop and still get action. An extra buck or two simplies this hand greatly. You should consider a flop fold. Once you get that far, you're pretty committed and it's hard to go too wrong just sticking the rest in. Heck, you probably should have just gone all-in on the flop.
10-17-2007, 10:46 PM
donkbee

Re: AQo in the BB vs limper ($100NL, PP)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by courtiebee

No reads, no stats.

This is a disturbing trend. Re-consider buying in full.

Don't buy in full if I suck at getting reads? I wish I could remember why I didn't even have stats on him. I didn't bother to record whether or not he was new or whatever when I was playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Heck, you probably should have just gone all-in on the flop.

Hmm ... why?
10-17-2007, 10:53 PM
Fnord

Re: AQo in the BB vs limper ($100NL, PP)

Quote:

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Don't buy in full if I suck at getting reads?

Yes.

Or to be less Fnord-like:
Don't buy in full if you're just playing your cards and not paying attention to what other players are doing enough to feel good about making difficult decisions for 100bb++.

Quote:

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Heck, you probably should have just gone all-in on the flop.

Hmm ... why?

The flop raise is to 1/3 of the effective stack size, we're out of position and there are two streets to come. With the :ad: in hand, folding to a diamond turn is out of the question, so it's just a matter of how we intend to get maximum value if we're going to continue. Here is where you really feel the pain of being lost making a difficult decision against an unknown opponent for a lot of money relative to the pot.
10-17-2007, 11:21 PM
donkbee

Thank you muchly.
10-17-2007, 11:50 PM
Fnord

One last thought on this after thinking it over durring dinner.

If you know nothing about your opponents other than that they don't totally suck, then you should seriously consider checking your option.

*flame away peanut gallery*
10-18-2007, 02:06 AM
sauce123

dont check preflop u have a gigantic equity edge vs his range and u should push it.

u overbet the flop which makes no sense just bet 10 and call his raise to 28 then c/r or value bet rivers and u should be fine.
10-18-2007, 02:12 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

dont check preflop u have a gigantic equity edge vs his range.

Here is where we disagree. I thought I was the limit player.
10-18-2007, 02:18 AM
sauce123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

dont check preflop u have a gigantic equity edge vs his range.

Here is where we disagree. I thought I was the limit player.

fnord, what are you trying to argue??

he limped in the CO!!

an unknown avg CO limpers range is like 22-AA, K8s-AKs, A2o-AKo, KT+, Q9+, 65+ 43s+ etc

we have a premium hand and the ability to knock the other OOP player out of the pot. you can't tell me we are behind his calling range?!

secondly, sure, he might have 2pr, a flush, or a set in the given hand. however, that doesn't mean anything about how good/bad our implied odds are over an infinite distribution of flops. sometimes the flop will come AQ2 and he will have A2, sometimes QQ5 and he will have Q9, sometimes A73 and he will have AJ, sometimes Q93 and he will have 88 etc.

plz explain to me ur position y not raising preflop could possibly be better...
10-18-2007, 02:43 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

plz explain to me ur position y not raising preflop could possibly be better...

We're out of position
Raising creates a very bad SPR for us
Our hand becomes very well defined
CO will likely bet any flop when checked to
Hot/Cold equity in this spot is silly as very often we won't be showing down.

I think if CO is a difficult/tricky/unknown player who will challenge our isolate + destroy line then checking is a reasonable play. It's also a good mix up.

If CO is weak/predictable they we should raise a lot of crap here. If CO will give action with weak hands in absurd spots, we should raise here to build a pot and be estatic about getting our money in here.
10-18-2007, 03:00 AM
sauce123

Fnord- Ok, I like the way this discussion is developing as u bring up some relevant points. I think there are more important considerations though:

I think being OOP suggests we should increase our raise size and perhaps see a flop with drawing hands like 87s, 65s.

I recently read PNLH and I actually like the concept of SPR for its simplicity. One thing we have to consider as we become better poker players is that we can create "bad sprs" for our TP type hands and then make a commitment decision on the flop. An example would be that I'm conditionally committed on any semi coordinated flop Qd9d5s for example, any flop hitting me hard AQx Qdxdxd QQx AAx, but not on dry flops A79r or coordinated flops QJT.

Our hand should not be very well defined. In this spot I am going to be isolating with an extremely wide range which without reads might look like 77+ KJ+ AT0+ A8s+ QJs+ and might end up being any two suited or 67o+ if my reads r very accurate or my opponent is extremely loose/passive.

The CO betting any flop is actually bad for us as if we r folding AQ unimproved we will be folding the best hand most of the time and if we call with it points 2.3 become magnified.

Hot/Cold equity is actually a very interesting concept in NLH spots like this. It actually does matter for a lot of reasons.

Also, given that CO limps, we can be 90%+ sure that he is weak/predictable and not a winner at this limit.
10-18-2007, 03:34 AM
donkbee

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

dont check preflop u have a gigantic equity edge vs his range and u should push it.

u overbet the flop which makes no sense just bet 10 and call his raise to 28 then c/r or value bet rivers and u should be fine.

Converter's broken, I actually bet $11. Edited to fix the post.
10-18-2007, 03:42 AM
donkbee

This thread is starting to go over my head, so I will ask a couple dumb questions so that I can attempt to follow it:

What is SPR?
What is hot/cold equity?
10-18-2007, 04:15 AM
Ravageur

I don't know what SPR and hot/cold equity are either, but I can't imagine checking your BB vs a random nl 100 limper to be anything but scared nitty money. Punish pre and punish the flop. You can fold the flop with a read, without one i call the flop raise and c/raise this turn AI or call his shove.

Also, I don't know many 'Tricky/difficult' players who open limp from the CO. Ohhh...wes has a small pair/two suited cards/cards can make straight/jack high and want to see a flop cheap...wes tricky.
Anyway I don't mean to be condescending (Fnord has some very interesting points though i disagree with them....or just don't understand them). Having said that though, fish usually just call off all their chips with all worse hands here which is concerning :(
10-18-2007, 04:19 AM
Kagey

Quote:

This thread is starting to go over my head, so I will ask a couple dumb questions so that I can attempt to follow it:

What is SPR?
What is hot/cold equity?

me too, any explanations?
10-18-2007, 04:47 AM
minSim

As far as I know SPR is coming from the book Professional No-Limit Holdem, which is a relatively new book from Matt Flynn, Sunny Mehta and maybe others, I don't know for sure.
In the FTR "Tools of poker" section you can find a bit more information on it, though not very much as the book hasn't been discussed much (as far as I know).

I haven't read it myself and am quite anchious to hear what guys like Fnord and Sauce think about it. One of the concepts in the book talks about something called SPR, which in my experience has something to do with pot/stack ratio for certain type of hands, pot comitting and related stuff.
But as I said earlier, I haven't read the book myself, only a few words about it. So someone that has read it can comment far better on the subject then I can.

Though I have to only have read a few words about it