Theory thread: River c/r

I'll start off with noting basic factors we consider when we want to decide whether we want to make a river c/r or not. I'm not sure which should be consider "main" factors, but all are definitely relevant.

C/r with nut hands:
1. Is our opponent going to value bet thin and on a similar note is he passive or aggressive? There are a lot of opponents at higher stakes especially that vbet thin like it's there job. Obviously, if we have a nut hand and our opponent is going to bet a wider range than he will call/raise with, a c/r may be the decision you want to go with.
2. Is he the type of person who cant find a fold button when faced with a minraise? Most of the time money is shallow, so most river c/r's are close to min.
3. Have we been making a lot of river c/r's?

More fun is c/r as a bluff.

1. Same as nut hands #1.
2. Is your image tight
3. Is he capable of making big folds.
4. Does our line make any sense?

Possible river c/r discussion hands:

I have been playing very aggro and 0evg0 is making the light vbetting like his life depends on it. I have been c/r the river a good amount, clearly sometimes with the nuts and clearly sometimes with not. He is a very good hand reader. This hand is obviously a bad play by me but worth discussing.

POKERSTARS GAME #12269058978: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2007/09/25 - 19:42:27 (ET)
Table 'Wurm' 2-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: 0evg0 ($1033.50 in chips)
Seat 2: heybude ($621.50 in chips)
0evg0: posts small blind $2
heybude: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to heybude [Kh Qc]
0evg0 said, "****kkk"
0evg0: raises $8 to $12
heybude: raises $28 to $40
0evg0: calls $28
*** FLOP *** [Td 3s Ad]
heybude: bets $52
0evg0 said, "cooler after cooler"
0evg0: calls $52
*** TURN *** [Td 3s Ad] [8c]
heybude: checks
0evg0: checks
*** RIVER *** [Td 3s Ad 8c] [7s]
heybude: checks
0evg0: bets $100
heybude: raises $208 to $308


POKERSTARS GAME #12268409962: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2007/09/25 - 19:05:03 (ET)
Table 'Electra IV' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: 0evg0 ($394 in chips)
Seat 2: heybude ($406 in chips)
heybude: posts small blind $2
0evg0: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 0evg0 [9d 8c]
heybude: raises $8 to $12
0evg0: calls $8
*** FLOP *** [Kc 9h 2d]
0evg0: bets $16
heybude: calls $16
*** TURN *** [Kc 9h 2d] [4d]
0evg0: checks
heybude: bets $44
0evg0: calls $44
*** RIVER *** [Kc 9h 2d 4d] [9s]
0evg0: checks
heybude: bets $104
0evg0: raises $164 to $268

POKERSTARS GAME #12269563212: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2007/09/25 - 20:10:56 (ET)
Table 'Sculptor' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: heybude ($1705.50 in chips)
Seat 2: 0evg0 ($734 in chips)
0evg0: posts small blind $2
heybude: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to heybude [Kc 8c]
0evg0: raises $8 to $12
heybude: calls $8
*** FLOP *** [Kd Tc 7c]
heybude: checks
0evg0: checks
*** TURN *** [Kd Tc 7c] [4d]
heybude: checks
0evg0: bets $16
heybude: calls $16
*** RIVER *** [Kd Tc 7c 4d] [6c]
heybude: checks
0evg0: bets $44
heybude: raises $104 to $148

Another horrible one
POKERSTARS GAME #12268174825: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2007/09/25 - 18:51:19 (ET)
Table 'Sculptor' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: heybude ($868.50 in chips)
Seat 2: 0evg0 ($539 in chips)
0evg0: posts small blind $2
heybude: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to heybude [4c 5c]
0evg0: raises $8 to $12
heybude: raises $28 to $40
0evg0: calls $28
*** FLOP *** [Th Qc 9s]
heybude: bets $52 (yeah horrible lets just discount this)
0evg0: calls $52
*** TURN *** [Th Qc 9s] [Qh]
heybude: checks
0evg0: checks
*** RIVER *** [Th Qc 9s Qh] [9c]
heybude: checks
0evg0: bets $145
heybude: raises $290 to $435

I guess hand 1 is bad because you bet that river like always with your made hands?

Hand 2 I'm not good enough to comment, can you really fold this?

Hand 3 I like

Hand 4 I don't know cause I don't play at these stakes...what's his calling range?


I hope there will be some theory into the thread as well!

C/R with good hands for value is best when your hand is really under/misrepresented and obviously you think that villain is capable of thin value bets.

In certain situations you can misrepresent your hand and C/R river when villain is very likely to call you down based on flop and turn such as, say you flop a set or some really strong hand and there is a flush draw out - you call flop and turn to represent your on a draw (villain would expect you to raise a strong hand to protect against his possible draws) and the draw doesnt hit a C/R is really good here as villain will think a big part of your range is just missed draws - and if you show down a set after playing this way you will have some fold equity if you play your draws this way too - it will also encourage villains to check behind mroe frequently on the river which can be good if you have a medium strength hand.

So you're suggesting calling flop and turn with a set on a board with a flush draw?

By faaar the most important condition for a C/R bluff is if the turn went check/check

C/R for value is more of a function of accurately assessing your opponent's hand range- for instance, say action goes

BTN raises HERO calls in BB with 55
flop Ac 8d 5s
check/3/4 pot/call (we for sure raise here sometimes but a call is definitely fine a fairly large % of the time)
turn 2 check/check
river A- anything but a checkraise is very bad unless we thinkg our villain is going to raise with any ace and call a 3bet

Nice posts by Toadstool and sauce.

I wish I had more to say about this, gabe should chime in with a long post and get his word count up! River c/r's are his specialty it seems.

I don't think I can really give usefull input, so I'll try to ask some supplementary questions every now and then.

What roll does betsizing have in river c/r's?
(both villains size and our raise size, is there any difference when we c/r for value or as a bluff?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by biondino

So you're suggesting calling flop and turn with a set on a board with a flush draw?

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ive done this now more frequently when you know your opponent is going to bet the turn for value when you should raise the flop if you have a set.

villain is stdjdog like 25/20 reg kinda abc postflop


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($139)
Button ($1229.90)
Hero ($1726.95)
BB ($591)

Preflop: Hero is SB with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/kc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qs.gif.
1 fold, Button raises to $24, Hero calls $21, 1 fold.

Flop: ($54) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6c.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $39, Hero raises to $132, Button calls $93.

Turn: ($318) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/9h.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($318) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2d.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $237, Hero raises to $1570.95

Wouldn't you lead the turn with a set or non-nut flush? If I were villain I'd think you're repping the nut flush and not much else. Thing is, he's repping almost nothing that can make a call here, so it might have worked.

The thing that saves this is his range is mostly missed fd bluffs.

stjdog is just such a station he probably convinces himself to call with a weak J or TT. Although we are deep. I think versus most other laggs this is really sick.

I think when we consider when to c/r the river AI it's important to also consider reasons why people will check back the turn IP and bet the river when checked to. There are basically 2 reasons I would bet/check/bet. The first one is for pot control

say I raise QT and a blind calls, flop is dry Q high, I cbet and get called, check the turn back and bet the river. This hand is where you want to c/r me all in.

second is when I raise in LP, flop a draw IP, cbet flop, get called, check back the turn and hit my draw on the river. This is where you don't want to c/r me all in.

Here's a hand I played last night.

200NL, stacks are $185.

1 fold, MP limps, CO folds, TAG Button limps, SB completes I check A5o in the BB. Flop: A:heart:K:diamond:7:club:. SB checks, I lead for $5.50 into the $7.50 pot. Button is only caller. Sometimes I check /call here but w/e.

Turn is the 5:diamond: and I bet out again for $14 into the $18 pot. He flat calls again.value ldo

River is A:club:. I check because he is likely to flat call with an ace if I bet but I believe he is very likely to bet for value if I check to him. I want to play a huge pot. Anyways I check, he bets $24 and I raise AI.

Maybe this is just horrible but I think this demonstrates some of the concepts here.

I found one from my last session that shows ranges i think.

5 handed 200nl
Pretty simple, opp is a 40/5 fish so i expect to get c/r'ed on turn or bet into on river, perhaps even open river shove when he has me beat (QJ/9x are obvious hands) When he c/r's all in on river i expect to see a bluff from a bad player or some overplayed crap like KT definitly not the nuts, only because the line is far too good for a bad player.

Texas Hold'em $2-$4 NL (real money), hand #P4-52782488-21
Table Mechelen, 29 Oct 2007 3:29 PM ET

Seat 3: keny55 ($4.55 in chips)
Seat 7: klaus291154 ($131.25 in chips)
Seat 8: valdaval ($64.55 in chips)
Seat 9: IwontheBBJ [ 9S,7S ] ($398.80 in chips)
Seat 10: Jimmy-Koks ($35.30 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
keny55 posts blind ($1), klaus291154 posts blind ($2).

PRE-FLOP
valdaval folds, IwontheBBJ bets $8, Jimmy-Koks folds, keny55 calls $3.55 and is all-in, klaus291154 calls $6.

FLOP [board cards 10S,9D,9H ]
klaus291154 checks, IwontheBBJ bets $15, klaus291154 calls $15.

TURN [board cards 10S,9D,9H,KD ]
klaus291154 checks, IwontheBBJ checks.

RIVER [board cards 10S,9D,9H,KD,3C ]
klaus291154 checks, IwontheBBJ bets $25, klaus291154 bets $108.25 and is all-in, IwontheBBJ calls $83.25.

SHOWDOWN
klaus291154 shows [ JC,QS ]
IwontheBBJ shows [ 9S,7S ]
keny55 mucks cards
klaus291154 wins $264.05.

SUMMARY
Dealer: Jimmy-Koks
Pot: $267.05, (including rake: $3)
keny55 loses $4.55
klaus291154 bets $131.25, collects $264.05, net $132.80
valdaval loses $0
IwontheBBJ loses $131.25
Jimmy-Koks loses $0


Also, i linked someone a few days ago but the best example i have of playing a c/r all in river was this one i posted a few months back when playing 2/4.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...677&highlight=

Also, is this Gabe on 2+2 because this was a discussion i saw this morning.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ge=0&fpart=all

Hand 1 - he has an ace here, I don't think he is value betting a ten here - or is he? Generally, I don't try to push people off a top pair because they don't fold and I make the most of my money by people trying to push me off a top pair.

Hand 2 - be a calling station even though his line looks like he probably has a 9. Donk bet c/c c/r looks like a 9 here. But you need a good reason to fold trips in HU play.

Hand 3 - I guess it is good even though I would never make that play. I would bet turn.

Hand 4 - I don't like it. What are you trying to represent? If you had ace high, you make a c/c, right? He knows that you know that he wouldn't bluff on this board, so if he has ace high, he is going to check. So he knows that you don't expect him to value bet river thin in that spot, unless he has a 9 and it would be very risky if you had a queen, to attempt a checkraise here. So he calls with a 9. But he probably folds a T.

I don't do those c/r river a lot. I guess I should do them more often. But usually those c/r river bluffs are spews and they get called a lot. No one believes you that you would risk that villain checks behind. So people call them. Generally, don't try to push people off a top pair or a strong hand. C/r is more appropriate as a way to get paid off, not as a way to bluff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Here's a hand I played last night.

200NL, stacks are $185.

1 fold, MP limps, CO folds, TAG Button limps, SB completes I check A5o in the BB. Flop: A:heart:K:diamond:7:club:. SB checks, I lead for $5.50 into the $7.50 pot. Button is only caller. Sometimes I check /call here but w/e.

Turn is the 5:diamond: and I bet out again for $14 into the $18 pot. He flat calls again.value ldo

River is A:club:. I check because he is likely to flat call with an ace if I bet but I believe he is very likely to bet for value if I check to him. I want to play a huge pot. Anyways I check, he bets $24 and I raise AI.

Maybe this is just horrible but I think this demonstrates some of the concepts here.

---

No this is a well played hand i like every streets. Nice awareness to c/r, although if he's a complete donk i may just overshove.

i read somewhere today, adding up the two reasons i would c/r river, is to either rep the nuts when i have it or might have it, or when i want to turn a showdownable (lol not a word) hand into a bluff when my opp cant showdown versus my perceived range when i make this play.

wow that post i just made was so dumb, obv fold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Also, is this Gabe on 2+2 because this was a discussion i saw this morning.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ge=0&fpart=all

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that one is good but this one actually involves me c/ring river and includes results

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...e#Post12635438

okay, well on this one he should obviously snap call it, but i think your bluff should work versus nits.

wow that hand is straight forward. Am i missing multi-levels here or did they simply out-think themselves?

really nice thread again guys

Gabe, im abit confused on your last hand where u c/r'd AI on river. It just seems to me that its simply a case of him not being able to call as opposed to you actually repping a hand that beats him.

If at 100-200nl vs a good reg for that level and he used your line vs me here. Its almost like im always gonna cry call or cry fold here, bcoz its obv what ive got yet your repping ''everything and nothing''. the fact Ive to call an AI with TPTK here sucks so much yet it looks like so little beats me (given other streets).

Is it conveivable you do take such a line with strong hands. or anyone else here make some plays like this?

problem with MSNL is that everyone takes the same line(s) with their big hands so when someone makes a river c/r and its not a standard line they look up with any pair. unfortunately that means we need hands to beat them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce123

problem with MSNL is that everyone takes the same line(s) with their big hands so when someone makes a river c/r and its not a standard line they look up with any pair. unfortunately that means we need hands to beat them.

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Yeah thats very true that ppl just take very standard lines with strong hands. But *with strong hands* then shouldnt we make these plays??? As long as opp value bets thin on river we have a winning move right (of course we lose alot of value here when he checks behind)? then we go about balancing our play on river by bluffing *IF* we think opp is adjusting.

the only ppl to make this move against is thinking regs!! and even they there arent many and many will call our bluff. Depends on how thin they bet.

Hand 1: marginal, a thinking player will call you
Hand 2: well-played riverrat
Hand 3: I don't like the turn check-call at all
Hand 4: disgusting

Anybody else agree that a river C/R has a much much higher instinctual to analytical ratio than virtually any other aspect of the game???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Grouch

Anybody else agree that a river C/R has a much much higher instinctual to analytical ratio than virtually any other aspect of the game???

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its pretty easy to represent bigger than one pair with it.

its pretty hard to get them to fold one pair with it.

its better to c/r bluff if ur opponent is a strong player.

its better to c/r bluff if u dont have my image.

None of these wonderfully deep thinking statements addressed what I was implying

I just meant that at least for me I will often just get a feeling on the turn when I have a strong hand oop that I'm going to check again on the river if it checks through

Conversely, I will also often just up and decide, usually as late as after checking the river with my garbagey hand, that there is no way that i can be called with a CRAI

I actually completely disagree that it's hard to fold out one pair and would argue that being looked up by one pair hands is very difficult if the move is not (over/mis)used

BTW if i start getting looked up by one pair hands OMG COMMENCE VALUETOWN RIVER CHECK/RAISING

Your subconscious instincts are products of analytical thought processes that were ingrained in your mind, so in a sense instinctual is analytical.