ugh, time to make a big fold?

main villain is 20/16/3 hasn't done anything out of the ordinary.

other guy is 52/22/3 donk.

comments on all streets are appreciated.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($1414.95)
SB ($158.70)
Hero ($563.20)
UTG ($797.20)
MP ($398)
CO ($167.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to $14, CO calls $14, 2 folds, Hero calls $10.

Flop: ($44) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($44) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $35, MP raises to $105, CO calls $105, Hero calls $70.

River: ($359) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $279 (All-In), CO folds, Hero gets dizzy

I think you gotta lead this flop, its 3-way and too drawy to risk it checking through.

on the turn I guess you're behind JJ/QQ/KT/T8/99 are the only hands that really make sense. I'd imagine KT might bet this flop, so I guess it could be JJ/QQ/T8 /99 that you're behind. You're ahead of J9, QJ, JT,QT,9T which also may play this turn this way.

I mean.. I wouldn't be surprised to call and lose here.. but I think if bluffing is ever possible here even you gotta call getting pretty decent pot odds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

I think you gotta lead this flop, its 3-way and too drawy to risk it checking through.

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I usually lead but i thought if the pfr didn't bet it the donk behind him would with a wide range.

There should be no such thing of having to do anything, checking this flop is fine IMO. Though i do like a lead better.

Idk i have to admit this kind of seems like a fold. I probably call in the moment though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

There should be no such thing of having to do anything, checking this flop is fine IMO. Though i do like a lead better.

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lol well yes.. i think you're taking the phrasing of my response too literally. Did hero also actually get dizzy on the river?

no he doesn't "have to " lead flop and in all honesty I probably lead here less than 50% of the time.. and its easier to say lead once I see that it got checked through. Obviously if MP bet and we were able to c/r I would probably say that was fine too.

If you're calling the turn and willing to call a non-pairing river I'd say shoving the turn is probably the best play to make CO pay for whatever he's drawing to.

If donk CO calls MP's river push does that make you more or less likely to call this river?

Yeah sorry Griffey your right i took what you said way too literally i think. I was just making the point checking here is in no way bad IMO.

Checking flop seems fine to me - they are both aggressive (esp the donk) and alot of their hands hit a little something on this flop. (edit: btw, lol at "you gotta lead" turning into "I lead less than 50% of the time" :D)

I think the river is a pretty clear fold - he's not bluffing after getting called in two spots on the turn. CO has 50$ left so he's probably not expecting him to fold often at all. I could see MP having J9 or Q9 sometimes, but I think you'll see 99/straights like 90%+ of the time.

Either c/f unpaired river or shove turn when he can still be semibluffing pair+draws, not sure what I prefer. With the pot being protected against MP bluffing I think I like a turn call and then c/f to a MP bet or c/c a bet from the donk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HalvSame

Checking flop seems fine to me - they are both aggressive (esp the donk) and alot of their hands hit a little something on this flop. (edit: btw, lol at "you gotta lead" turning into "I lead less than 50% of the time" :D)

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lol.. well I know when I shoooooould lead after the fact =) But in the heat of the moment.. going for a c/r is just too tempting!

I think the turn is really the bigger decision here. To push or call?

River is just a question of "are we really behind more than 70% of the time here?"... its possible we are. Depends how bluffy villain is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Massimo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

I think you gotta lead this flop, its 3-way and too drawy to risk it checking through.

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I usually lead but i thought if the pfr didn't bet it the donk behind him would with a wide range.

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max- you also need to think of what your checkraise is representing AND what ur 2/3-potsized turn lead will set up his stack-off range to be. I think you will find its far worse for ur expected value than leading...

i cant find a fold on river here

also u realize folding this river entails putting a player on exactly T8.

and i would argue that anything besides leading this flop is pretty significant mistake, in the neighborhood of 4 BB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce123

also u realize folding this river entails putting a player on exactly T8.

and i would argue that anything besides leading this flop is pretty significant mistake, in the neighborhood of 4 BB.

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99 but kind of moot.

Redgrape (12:38:10 PM): i mean we just can't rep much bad by leading
Redgrape(12:38:16 PM): like QJ?
Redgrape(12:38:18 PM): *QT
Sauce(12:37:56 PM): well thats a mistake
Sauce(12:38:03 PM): u should be leading a wide range
Redgrape (12:38:50 PM): why?
Sauce(12:38:56 PM): for instance i can have AQ-54, KT T9 55 jj spades when i lead here
Sauce (12:39:17 PM): because check/calling here seems pretty poor

also i can have complete air here when i lead or gutter like 98

I am one in the camp who would lead here with a wide range of hands. When I call with a small pocket pair and am in a multiway pot I often lead the flop with my set if I am almost certain that the board hit someones raising/calling range. I offset this by leading with flush draws, top pair or good straight draws.

btw I would call but not be too happy about it. I play about villain's range and only 99 or KT makes real sense here.

flop is about a 90% lead for me. and i'll agree with sauce that it's important enough that you can't just "mix it up" and lead check fifty fifty.

Also, i would probably 3bet all in on the turn, and if i got here in the manner that you did, i would fold.