The changing state of microstakes.

There are several, nay.. well hell lets just go around one of my tables. We have a 35/0, a 50/10, 31/10, and another 50/0.

They're making tons of mistakes preflop, but they really nit it up post flop and its incredibly difficult to extract. Basically they dont reraise without the nuts, and they certainly don't stack off lightly. They c/fold lots of flops, and their take on exploitation is to donk bet A LOT (i'd estimate around 65% of pots get donkbetted) to force you to fold overcards.

Conventional wisdom says the key to beating the microstakes is to play really tight, ABCish, flop sets get paid, fold everything else kinda poker because the microstakes players take their top pairish hands way too far.

But that is no longer the state of microstakes games as far as I can see. There are of course the truly terrible players, but they rarely last more than a few orbits, and they tend to buy in short anyway.

And I'm more or less failing to adjust to the weaktighties. Clearly when they raise we need to have a good hand to continue. But I want to say we should be playing more 25/20 and less 15/10 poker simply because thats the way to combat nutcampers -- make them fold when tehy miss, and when they hit our range is too wide to stack off.

Thoughts?

game select better. also yeah if you are playing with a bunch of weak tights 25/20 will work better than 15/10.

This exemplifies my problems so perfectly. Basically the only hands I fear are the ones he *should* have raised preflop. But he's a 50/0, so I'm left holding my balls 200bb deep, and there goes another 200bb. So I can't seem to read them.

The other logical choice is to buy in shorter.

*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to EUPHOLOGI [Ks Jh]
SEBO1 - Calls $0.10
POCKETACEGRL - Folds
EUPHOLOGI - Raises $0.45 to $0.50
DYLANADAM - Calls $0.40
SEBO1 - Calls $0.40
*** FLOP *** [8c Js Kd]
EUPHOLOGI - Bets $1
DYLANADAM - Calls $1
SEBO1 - Calls $1
*** TURN *** [8c Js Kd] [10c]
EUPHOLOGI - Bets $3
DYLANADAM - Folds
SEBO1 - Raises $6 to $6
EUPHOLOGI - All-In(Raise) $13.55 to $16.55
SEBO1 - Calls $10.55
*** RIVER *** [8c Js Kd 10c] [6h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
EUPHOLOGI - Shows [Ks Jh] (Two Pair, kings and jacks)
SEBO1 - Shows [Ah Qs] (Straight, ten to ace)

in that hand i would pot the flop. then bet turn and get allin.

yea that hand looks decent to me. you didn't play it wrong. just variance, when these guys nit it up post flop just account for that in their range and you should be fine. take advantage by their loose pf calls by raising bigger and taking pots down with a cbet, if they float a lot start double barelling, it will be profitable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

They c/fold lots of flops, and their take on exploitation is to donk bet A LOT (i'd estimate around 65% of pots get donkbetted) to force you to fold overcards.

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start re-raising them when you have outs you can count on, even if its like a gutshot or just 2 overs. most of the time they fold, and if they dont you can beat them on the turn and hit big, or get to check the turn to see a free river. Try stoving some scenarios where you are reraising their cbets/leads... and be surprised how often you can suckout on them for a big pot. great for the image too! Also, check your HUD stats for "folded to reraise" or %cbets.


e.g.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($136.60)
UTG ($43.40)
MP ($100)
CO ($33.90)
Button ($107.60)
SB ($188.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
4 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $3.

Flop: ($8) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero raises to $12, SB folds.

Final Pot: $16


villain is smart enough to know we only pair 1/3 of the time and if we raised, that flop missed us. But villain has also learned that when the flop is raised and he has nothing or a weak holding, its time to fold.

Quote:

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Conventional wisdom says the key to beating the microstakes is to play really tight, ABCish, flop sets get paid, fold everything else kinda poker because the microstakes players take their top pairish hands way too far.

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I missed the moneymaker boom era, only been playing for like a 18 months or something but the above strategy sounds bad for 50 and 100nl (I don't know about 25 and under, which is called micro on PS). There's just so much dead money in hands where people WANT to fold. They throw out what amount to blocking bets on flops. As long as you have some outs you consider solid, consider a reraise

you probably go through swings where u run hot and hit sets and such, then slowly the rake takes your winnings, or you miss a bunch of pps and c/f flops and you wonder how your set double up is gone, what happened you might not have even been in a big hand once

Quote:

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But that is no longer the state of microstakes games as far as I can see. There are of course the truly terrible players, but they rarely last more than a few orbits, and they tend to buy in short anyway.

And I'm more or less failing to adjust to the weaktighties. Clearly when they raise we need to have a good hand to continue. But I want to say we should be playing more 25/20 and less 15/10 poker simply because thats the way to combat nutcampers -- make them fold when tehy miss, and when they hit our range is too wide to stack off.

Thoughts?

---

i dont mean to sound rude but you sound a *bit* weak tight and afraid to make a raise without the goods. I certainly could be mistaken.

you know whats going on, your smart, just take the initiative to follow through with your analysis and take a line that will make him fold

sometimes u call the donkbet and when he checks the turn, bet and take it, sometimes raise the flop, etc. This makes you very tricky and they will start betting more when they have the goods and less without them, so keep their adjustment to you in mind

First, I agree. I'm a microstakes grinder, and I'm having this problem trying to jump from NL10 to NL25, where basic ABC nutcamping no longer works as well. I really liked this post and all the responses. It helped me a bunch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

start re-raising them when you have outs you can count on, even if its like a gutshot or just 2 overs. most of the time they fold, and if they dont you can beat them on the turn and hit big, or get to check the turn to see a free river. Try stoving some scenarios where you are reraising their cbets/leads... and be surprised how often you can suckout on them for a big pot. great for the image too! Also, check your HUD stats for "folded to reraise" or %cbets.

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Great advice. At NL10 on UB, I can get the fish to fold with a c-bet. At NL25, they are SUCH stations that c-betting and 2 barreling like I do at NL10 gets me stacking off too much. If I'm ahead on the flop, even with overs, I need to try some different lines. If I can get a read on medium/weak holdings, and check raise, I should be able to take the pot down. If not, we'll have all the chips in the middle and I'll have some equity/outs. Good advice on PT/HUD stats. I've been adding those types of reads this week, and I'll work on them some more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

i dont mean to sound rude but you sound a *bit* weak tight and afraid to make a raise without the goods. I certainly could be mistaken.

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I don't know about dino, but this is me - 100% weak tight at NL25. When I notice it, I overcorrect, donking off on complete air. I need to play harder, add in rr's (I almost NEVER rr at NL10, except to get it all-in with someone I think will stack off to my nut hand), etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

you know whats going on, your smart, just take the initiative to follow through with your analysis and take a line that will make him fold

sometimes u call the donkbet and when he checks the turn, bet and take it, sometimes raise the flop, etc. This makes you very tricky and they will start betting more when they have the goods and less without them, so keep their adjustment to you in mind

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I hope I can do this. I see why br management is so important. I have to quit worrying about spewing a few BI's and get to playing poker. I think this is a great post and some fine advice. I need to expand past ABC poker, and I think now is the perfect time to do it.

You will find that alot of the players play pretty weak/tight postflop and alot play crazy loose. Figure out whos who and play alot of small ball with the weak tights. Raise alot with any draw but dont stack off without the near nuts.

You will also find alot of players slowplaying QQ-AA preflop and stacking off with them postflop after giving you a chance to hit a set. Hit sets and get paid still works here.

I certainly agree that a 50/5 these days is nowhere near the same as a 50/5 a year ago but that doesnt mean we cant make money from them. If they are seeing lots of flops and hardly any showdowns then the obvious adjustment is to play hands that can bluff them when they miss and beat them sometimes when they win.

We need to figure out when they tend to fold though. Are they folding missed flops but carrying on the the river when they call a cbet? Are they calling a cbet but folding to a turn bet? Are they calling down with any top pair? This is very important information if we are going to beat this kind of player for alot of money.

Whether these apply to you or not is up to you.

- Play AQ+, 22-AA UTG
- Put your opponent on a range on every street
- Pounce on weakness (retarded blockers)
- Think about what your opponent puts you on if they're a hand reading type
- Learn pot control

Let me add this - I play at UB, where the BBJ tables start at NL50. A more experienced FTR player mentioned how this sucks all the fish up a level, leaving NL25 a much more difficult proposition. At NL10, there are fish aplenty and ABC works well when combined with almost unfettered postflop aggression. At NL25, and I'd like to hear some more experienced UB FTR'rs comment, there seems to be only the NL10 multitablers who have moved up and some reasonably competent weak-tights. Is there others' experience as well post UIEGA on US player sites?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

- Play AQ+, 22-AA UTG

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Already applies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

- Put your opponent on a range on every street

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Needs work. Gotten lazy from NL10 multitabling where I have standard lines for most situations and default to betting for anything unfamiliar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

- Pounce on weakness (retarded blockers)

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I need help here. We need to "pick our spots," and not just pounce with anything. We need to be pouncing with some value, right? Any HH's you have that demonstrate this would be appreciated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

- Think about what your opponent puts you on if they're a hand reading type

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Not sure I can tell when I'm playing this type of player. I sometimes figure folks like this, but then they prove me wrong with some donkfish play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

- Learn pot control

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Getting better at using blockers and underbets, but I can certainly learn more about how to build only small pots without looking weak.

Thanks, Ash. I'll go to work. I don't know if these replies have helped biondino or others, but this post/replies hits me right where I'm at in my poker development, and I'd love to see pelion and ash post some HH's that demonstrate their points. Thanks again.

you forget two things:
your opponents are 1million times worse than you think they are
When they raise they mean it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

- Learn pot control

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this one i dont think is that important since almost all of the opponents are going to be passive.

also maybe playing something like 25/20 is optimal in these games (if they really are this weaktight), i dont know since i dont play them, but im pretty sure you can still crush microstakes by playing 17/14 kind of style. also game selection would help a lot too.

Villains a 50/2 and I spew (hey that rhymes)

Dealt to EUPHOLOGI [Q:c: 4:c:]
SHPANDA - Folds
LIGLIERTO - Folds
EUPHOLOGI - Raises $0.40 to $0.40
DARTHVAD6R - Folds
BAMHUGHES - Calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [7:s: K:c: J:h:] flop smacks my range dead in the face
BAMHUGHES - Checks
EUPHOLOGI - Bets $0.75
BAMHUGHES - Calls $0.75
*** TURN *** [7:s: K:c: J:h:] [3:d:] total blank
BAMHUGHES - Checks
EUPHOLOGI - Bets $1.25
BAMHUGHES - Calls $1.25
*** RIVER *** [7s Kc Jh 3d] [4s] another blank, but I'm pretty sure villain has a weak J. Can he fold it?
BAMHUGHES - Checks
EUPHOLOGI - Bets $3
BAMHUGHES - Folds holla

for that hand not a good idea to steal with Q4 when that guy is in the bb. turn is bad if he called flop hes calling now. also the bet size is small. and then river is marginal probably dont want to fire a 3rd barrel into the station.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

Villains a 50/2 and I spew (hey that rhymes)

Dealt to EUPHOLOGI [Q:c: 4:c:]
SHPANDA - Folds
LIGLIERTO - Folds
EUPHOLOGI - Raises $0.40 to $0.40
DARTHVAD6R - Folds
BAMHUGHES - Calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [7:s: K:c: J:h:] flop smacks my range dead in the face

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This may be a leak. Yes the hand worked out, but correct me if I'm wrong. This is level two thinking at a $10NL table. Chances that a 50/2 is even at level 1 may be a problem.

Quote:

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turn is bad if he called flop hes calling now

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I dont think this is true, theres lots of flop calls and turn c/folds, as fish seem to think calling is a strong play -- "I have a hand, stop bluffing me!"

true enough, jim. IDK. I cant at once say "I want to stop being a nutcamping nit" and then also say "I want to play purely level one poker"

two points here

"When your opponent raises they mean it". This is absolutely true. Don't try to push passive players off of hands if they are raising.

That doesnt necessarily mean their min-donkbets are hands they are calling down and it doesnt necessarily mean their flop calls will be followed through on the turn (although in alot of cases it will).

Point 2 is that alot of players use minbets as traps.

What I'm specifically working on
A) Stop limping along, raise the limpers. Theyre scared of raises, thats why they're limping! So scare 'em!
B) Squeezes, though the opportunity rarely presents itself (not much PFR'ng going on)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

true enough, jim. IDK. I cant at once say "I want to stop being a nutcamping nit" and then also say "I want to play purely level one poker"

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I agree with eupho. The hand he posted is a line I take all the time, sometimes (with this holding) even from the cutoff, depending on table, villains, etc.

Here's my problem. I do this at NL10 - no problem. Solid earn. I do this at NL25 and spew chips all over 4 tables at once. At NL10, they fold. At NL25, they call, call, call - all with J2.

no wai the hand you posted was a bad beat!!!

Quote:

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Here's my problem. I do this at NL10 - no problem. Solid earn. I do this at NL25 and spew chips all over 4 tables at once. At NL10, they fold. At NL25, they call, call, call - all with J2.

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I don't follow. Beating calling stations is truly the easiest part of NL hold'em. Stop bluffing, start valuebetting. Bet your good hands, don't bet your bad hands. The games I'm talking about are the inverse where I *cant* get action

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

A) Stop limping along, raise the limpers. Theyre scared of raises, thats why they're limping! So scare 'em!

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With what sort of range? There are still going to be a couple of players at the table who will call along with rubbish. 22-77 play great in this game if you limp and sethunt in a multiway pot. If you are raising them and seeing a few callers (who are almost always ahead of or flipping against your range) you are going to find them much harder to play profitably.

Quote:

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B) Squeezes, though the opportunity rarely presents itself (not much PFR'ng going on)

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Not much preflop raising means that a preflop raise is an unusually tight range. That makes calling with speculative hands more profitable, and squeezing with them less profitable. The other side to this is that if there is a caller or two before you squeeze, they are still likely to be reasonably week so you might have more dead money in the pot. Even so im not convinced that squeezing a 50/5s preflop raise with a hand that actually has good implied odds if you call behind with a couple of others is the best line to take.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

no wai the hand you posted was a bad beat!!!

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Yes I got gutshotted which you could call a bad beat, but its really because I layed my opponent about 17:1 implied odds, and because I was playing tight nitty poker he accurately guessed (maybe subconciously, or maybe by accident, doesnt much matter) that if he hit his miracle he would get paid.

Did he make a mistake, calling with 17:1 implied odds on a 10:1 gutshot to the nuts? Nope. So its hard for me to call it a badbeat when someone plays correctly and profits from it.

Quote:

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There are still going to be a couple of players at the table who will call along with rubbish. 22-77 play great in this game if you limp and sethunt in a multiway pot.

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Yep, but my range to raise them is so wide that theyre not going to get paid. Theyre then check/folding huge amounts of flops, and if they call my cbet or raise I'm done with the hand.

Quote:

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Not much preflop raising means that a preflop raise is an unusually tight range. That makes calling with speculative hands more profitable, and squeezing with them less profitable. The other side to this is that if there is a caller or two before you squeeze, they are still likely to be reasonably week so you might have more dead money in the pot. Even so im not convinced that squeezing a 50/5s preflop raise with a hand that actually has good implied odds if you call behind with a couple of others is the best line to take.

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Youre correct, and I'm probably using the squeeze term partly incorrectly. What I'm calling squeezing is probably just "raising multiple limpers lightly" (as well as being raising a PFR'r and a couple cold callers).

So my point 2 is probably point 1 on a larger scale.

*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to EUPHOLOGI [10:h: A:s:]
STINKY1111 - Calls $0.10
EUPHOLOGI - Raises $0.50 to $0.50
CALAMON - Folds
DUYPHUOC0510 - Calls $0.50
GO_PACKERS - Calls $0.45
BNMR - Folds
STINKY1111 - Folds
*** FLOP *** [7:h: 2:d: 3:c:]
GO_PACKERS - Bets $0.20 obligatory 2x minbet donk
EUPHOLOGI - Raises $1.20 to $1.20 lets try that raisin thing
DUYPHUOC0510 - Folds
GO_PACKERS - Calls $1 damnit
*** TURN *** [7h 2d 3c] [3:h:]
GO_PACKERS - Checks
EUPHOLOGI - Checks
*** RIVER *** [7h 2d 3c 3h] [J:d:]
GO_PACKERS - Checks
EUPHOLOGI - Bets $2.80 slightly under pot, and puts villain AI...

If they're all weak-tight (this is nothing new btw) you need to creep your stack upwards slowly by constantly stealing pots instead of waiting for a hand to stack someone. It's a very different game to play but not so hard.

I think, fundamentally, it is better for me long term. Nutcamping doesnt teach you anything, and I think the reason my NL game hasnt developed at ALL in the last year is because I nutcamped way too much.

[quote=Robb]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by "Ash256

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

- Pounce on weakness (retarded blockers)

---

I need help here. We need to "pick our spots," and not just pounce with anything. We need to be pouncing with some value, right? Any HH's you have that demonstrate this would be appreciated.

---

I'm not saying I played any of these right (I'm a bit of a monkey these days), but I could pretty easily tell my opponents were weak. Hand 1 he probs had overs, hand 2, I think he had a flushdraw (So I could've been raising for value there lol), hand 3, fuck him that's why!



$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($42.43)
UTG+1 ($59.80)
CO ($35.15)
Hero ($54.55)
SB ($50.40)
BB ($47.25)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BTN :ad: :qd:
UTG calls $0.5, UTG+1 raises to $2.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.25, 2 folds, UTG folds

Flop: :4h: :2c: :3c: ($5.75, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $5.75, Hero calls $5.75

Turn: :2h: ($17.25, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2, Hero raises to $15, UTG+1 folds

Final Pot: $47.25

Hero wins $20.2 ( lost -$2.8 )
UTG lost -$0.50
UTG+1 lost -$10.00



$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($47.91)
Hero ($110.85)
BTN ($29.84)
SB ($29.50)
BB ($49.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is CO :ks: :qd:
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, BTN calls $2, SB calls $1.75, BB calls $1.5

Flop: :9h: :4d: :ah: ($8, 4 players)
SB bets $0.5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, SB calls $6.5

Turn: :qs: ($22, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $22, SB folds

Final Pot: $66

Hero wins $20.9 ( lost -$10.1 )
BTN lost -$2.00
SB lost -$9.00
BB lost -$2.00




$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($71.27)
CO ($32.67)
Hero ($64.40)
SB ($50.10)
BB ($48.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is BTN :ac: :th:
UTG calls $0.5, CO calls $0.5, Hero raises to $3, 2 folds, UTG calls $2.5, CO folds

Flop: :6s: :2c: :3d: ($7.25, 2 players)
UTG bets $0.5, Hero raises to $6, UTG folds

Final Pot: $19.25

Hero wins $7.85 ( lost -$1.15 )
UTG lost -$3.50
CO lost -$0.50

Gotta bet like a man, I guess. Nice hands, ash, thanks for posting.

Nice hands.. funnily enough you were probably ahead in all of them.

Don't go passed the flop without a plan.

Now your plan may be, bet when x card hits, c/f when y card hits. c/r when z card hits...

This will help limit your spew, and may get you thinking more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

I think, fundamentally, it is better for me long term. Nutcamping doesnt teach you anything, and I think the reason my NL game hasnt developed at ALL in the last year is because I nutcamped way too much.

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i find that hard to believe. i doubt you're nutcamping because all your posts are either theory or math based. seriously, i do probably 1/10th of the amount of thinking you do, and i was playing ABC @ 100 and 200NL running 3ptbb/100. i didn't even 3bet lite.

my best guess is that some of these points are "correct," but wrong for 10NL, imo.

i agree wholeheartedly with the difference between 10NL and 25NL. where they fold more at 10NL, but "float" more at 25NL. they arent call stations, they just think you're full of shit for a street or two. at 10NL, if they miss the flop, they dont have the courage to call you down. they minraise you, or fold.

the approaches you need to take are a bit different at the two levels, imo.

at 25NL, you raise 78s late with a limper or two, and hit a huge pot when you hit the flop and they think you are cbetting.

at 10NL, you limp with 78s late because raising doesnt thin the field, and they arent paying you off w/o a hand themselves.

at 25NL, you can start to 3bet a little lighter. at 10NL, you dont 3bet unless you have the goods because your villain isnt folding anything he raised to a small RR.

at 10NL, play your nut draws passive when in position when checked to...you will lose players when you bet. but, from oop, you semibluff, and stack-a-donk.

its a bit of ass-backwards thinking, but 25NL is where poker starts to make a little sense. not much, but a little.

here are two graphs....

1) graph of 45k+ hands at 10NL and 25NL being aggressive, as Euph suggests. squeezing and isolating, or raising multiple limpers. semibluffing most bigger draws, felting combos. basically, trying to get the bigger holdings paid off because of tighter images. in other words, picking spots to get money in with lots of outs.

[img]http://xs122.xs.to/xs122/07523/agg.JPG.xs.jpg[/img]

and

2) 85k+ with 10NL and 25NL being much more passive. hiding behind limpers. trying to make a hand before turning on the gas. semibluffing less. not worrying about getting premiums paid off. just trying to keep missed hands cheap.

[img]http://xs122.xs.to/xs122/07523/pass.JPG.xs.jpg[/img]


all i am saying is watch out for overplaying marginal stuff. getting more aggressive is not the answer, imo. keeping pots small and busting them up when you hit IS the answer. you arent going to have a problem building pots against these guys.

food for thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

I think, fundamentally, it is better for me long term. Nutcamping doesnt teach you anything, and I think the reason my NL game hasnt developed at ALL in the last year is because I nutcamped way too much.

---

i find that hard to believe. i doubt you're nutcamping because all your posts are either theory or math based. seriously, i do probably 1/10th of the amount of thinking you do, and i was playing ABC @ 100 and 200NL running 3ptbb/100. i didn't even 3bet lite.

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This isnt fair, as I've been living off the bankroll while playing 10 and 25nl for over a year now. Probably spent around 7.5kish doing so.

a few things:

1) when opponents raise, yes it means something. Almost nobody is raising at these stakes to push you off a hand. Keep in mind some people will call flop anyways, but fold to another strong turn bet. But if your are OOP and are re-raised, dump it. If you are IP and re-raised and got called and villain bet turn, dump it (most of the time). If you re-raise flop you expect villain to dump turn or you are done with it.
2) Bet size. You do not need to be betting full pot. You may lose money if you stick with full pot bluffs vs. 2/3s which do basically the same at this stake. You are raising 50% more at full pot than 2/3 pot without a 50% increase in bluff success. So make sure your bet size is appropriate.
3) On average, try to have solid outs when making bluffs. Sometimes villain thinks you defined your hand on the flop, but with overs or a pp, you are still drawing to a superior hand. Many hands can be treated as "drawing" hands, even if the "draw" is weak. Even a PP is 10% after flop to hit a set, and your hand had showdown value (villain could miss their draw and whiff totally, or have like A5 while you have 66 and only have a pair of 5s.

now, I am not saying go crazy on every flop. But if you get the read that villain has air in a lot of these "common" situations, consider a line that will get villain off his hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

Quote:

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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

I think, fundamentally, it is better for me long term. Nutcamping doesnt teach you anything, and I think the reason my NL game hasnt developed at ALL in the last year is because I nutcamped way too much.

---

i find that hard to believe. i doubt you're nutcamping because all your posts are either theory or math based. seriously, i do probably 1/10th of the amount of thinking you do, and i was playing ABC @ 100 and 200NL running 3ptbb/100. i didn't even 3bet lite.

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This isnt fair, as I've been living off the bankroll while playing 10 and 25nl for over a year now. Probably spent around 7.5kish doing so.

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well, i don't know your exact financial situation, but i'm almost certain that if you made enough money from 10 and 25NL to cash out 7.5k, you woulda been better off cashing out like 3k and playing 200NL right now. just gotta live a little more frugal.

by "living" off of 7.5k, what do you mean? obviously #1 you aren't paying taxes on it, #2 you must either be getting financial assistance from parents or live in a low rent area with a roomate in the room or something. How is it you live off so little?

also, get out of 25nl. Go play 50 at the least. If you want to live off this stuff 25 isn't that different at all

Good stuff up there, guys, especially mixchange and chopper. I wish I had more to offer right now, but I'm only about 3.5k hands into playing again...

That said, Eupho, I just started playing again and my god are these games soft. You should be killing these games by now. Two things I noticed in your posts above...1) You're wasting your time complaining about how you can't beat bad players. If you're facing a 50/0 and he limps AK and beats you, so be it. Move on, next hand. 2) You posted that silly Q4s hand, wtf was the point of that? Why are you playing that hand in the first place?

It seems like you're a pretty smart guy but you over-think things way too much. You let the small things bother you. You get fancy play syndrome possibly. Play ABC poker while tightening up a little bit. Figure out who to 3-bet lightly, who folds after limping a lot, who calls after limping, etc. Build pots when you have hands, keep pots small when you don't have a great hand. Figure out how to value bet the shit out of those 60/5 guys. I could go on and on with all sorts of low-level poker theory for you, but you know this already. Now you need to go out and use it.

I wanted to also say euph that we're just here to support you. My post may not have come off that way (or maybe georges either) but we want you to succeed! Take our advice and think about it.