50NL: JJ -- Played terribly?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($30.25)
BB ($57.10)
UTG ($62.60)
Hero ($62)
MP2 ($11.75)
CO ($46.50)
Button ($52.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
UTG raises to $2, Hero calls $2, 5 folds.

Flop: ($4.75) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $3.5, Hero calls $3.50.

Turn: ($11.75) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $8, Hero raises to $22 ...

Villain 19/12 over 100. Infinite aggression.

Here's why I think this play was terrible:

I don't mind the call PF, sethunting + cautious overpair value -- I think my problem was calling the flop. I figured there was a fair chance he had QQ+, and I should have found out whether or not he'd missed AQ/AK without letting the flop get too big, and letting his potential overcards draw against the vulnerable jacks.

What this did is made me weak raise the turn, because I didn't want to spend tons finding out where I was, and I chose to do it on the more expensive turn :x Also risky pushing back against 2 streets of aggression, but I figured I was a little safe with his infinite aggression over 100 :o

I like, tho I´d prefer 3betting pre.

Do u have a plan if he shoves over?

Ya I def woulda raised the flop to see where you're at. I guess if he's super aggro he still might reraise w/AK? I hate these type hands. (99, tt, JJ 0n a 8 high board).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XTR1000

I like, tho I´d prefer 3betting pre.

Do u have a plan if he shoves over?

---

I was planning on folding, giving him the benefit of the doubt for QQ+. He seemed fairly TAGgy and them's the SOBs who always stack me with QQ+ in situations like this. I'd seen him lay down other pots after aggression and I think it's fairly common for a 12/19 who knows how to fold who showed aggression at every opportunity to have jacks beat here...

i call down

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by d0zer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XTR1000

I like, tho I´d prefer 3betting pre.

Do u have a plan if he shoves over?

---

I was planning on folding, giving him the benefit of the doubt for QQ+. He seemed fairly TAGgy and them's the SOBs who always stack me with QQ+ in situations like this. I'd seen him lay down other pots after aggression and I think it's fairly common for a 12/19 who knows how to fold who showed aggression at every opportunity to have jacks beat here...

---

Quote:

---

Also risky pushing back against 2 streets of aggression, but I figured I was a little safe with his infinite aggression over 100

---

I don't understand why we're raising the turn as played vs this opponent. If he's betting/raising lots then giving up to aggression, he's obv super-aggro and bluffs a lot.

This sounds like a reason to call him down more than anything else. If you call the turn, call the river, you might get two more streets of value with your hand. If you raise the turn, hands you beat fold, and better hands call/raise. I.e. your $16 would have been better spent calling a $16 bet on the end rather than a $16 raise on the turn.

Haven't we had many threads recently discussing why we shoudn't be betting to "find out where we're at"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eugmac

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by d0zer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XTR1000

I like, tho I´d prefer 3betting pre.

Do u have a plan if he shoves over?

---

I was planning on folding, giving him the benefit of the doubt for QQ+. He seemed fairly TAGgy and them's the SOBs who always stack me with QQ+ in situations like this. I'd seen him lay down other pots after aggression and I think it's fairly common for a 12/19 who knows how to fold who showed aggression at every opportunity to have jacks beat here...

---

Quote:

---

Also risky pushing back against 2 streets of aggression, but I figured I was a little safe with his infinite aggression over 100

---

I don't understand why we're raising the turn as played vs this opponent. If he's betting/raising lots then giving up to aggression, he's obv super-aggro and bluffs a lot.

This sounds like a reason to call him down more than anything else. If you call the turn, call the river, you might get two more streets of value with your hand. If you raise the turn, hands you beat fold, and better hands call/raise. I.e. your $16 would have been better spent calling a $16 bet on the end rather than a $16 raise on the turn.

Haven't we had many threads recently discussing why we shoudn't be betting to "find out where we're at"?

---

Well I haven't been a part of those threads, but that passive line is gunna cost you a lot when he's got the goods. I also don't think this one is a maniac. A c-betting multi-tabling reg a touch on the aggressive side maybe, but not some maniac who's gunna bluff three streets when their overcards miss...

dozer - Who cares if he shows up with a monster this time?

If he doesn't 2 barrel overcards or under PP then just fold.

I don't really get the idea of calling a vulnerable hand like jacks down. That seems dangerous. Do we shutdown when QKA comes on the board?

...better yet, a thread with the discussion I apparently missed?

what range do you put him on? calling down a range that we have good equity against is better than raising when the majority of hands that will call beat us. if he keeps betting when an AKQ comes then fold. If he even checks on river I mostly check behind anyways. I'm not trying to play a big pot here.

4 bet preflop, please :cool: As played, i'd reraise to $9-10 on the flop with intention of folding to his shove.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pokerfan

4 bet preflop, please :cool: As played, i'd reraise to $9-10 on the flop with intention of folding to his shove.

---

it would be a 3bet preflop but i don't understand your line at all no offense. Lose min./win min. i guess? i go for the win max.

although 100 hands means nothing , we should still 3 bet AQ+, JJ+ against his preflop raising range. Frankly, i'm definitely leaning towards calling down with AA or KK and let him catch up in later streets. In my opinion, playing fancy with JJ is way too risky and taking the pot right away is really acceptable considering that the majority of ppl at this level will not fire the second barrel with missed two overs when encountering flop resistance.. :P Also, we define our hand very well and make our opponent's decision-making harder and more difficult. he might call us with 77-TT and reraise with QQ+ if he is a terrible player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kmind

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pokerfan

4 bet preflop, please :cool: As played, i'd reraise to $9-10 on the flop with intention of folding to his shove.

---

it would be a 3bet preflop but i don't understand your line at all no offense. Lose min./win min. i guess? i go for the win max.

---

i don't mind 3betting pre but that's not what i wanted to talk about.

in no way do i think my line is fancy at all. if they won't fire a second barrel with missed overs than i assume his range is 99+ and i fold. what do you mean we define our hand well and how is his decision-making more difficult? by defining our hand, he plays against us perfectly. 77 is also a very unlikely hand in his range.

Quote:

---

Infinite aggression over 100

---

By the way, which street is this AF referring to? Is it overall post-flop or for a specific street? Infinite means he's NEVER called anybody's bet or raise, right? And over 100 hands, I presume?

I suppose raising flop is bad, especially when he´s prone to 2barrel w/ overs/66-77/99-TT.
Raising flop would blow out most weaker holdings. Turnraise I like, mostly for value vs 99/TT and I dont like to see a river card, since any AKQ either beats us or kills our action

Easy to take a passive line here and be correct. Raising is bad until villain starts calling too often with a losing range. As of now your equity is passive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Easy to take a passive line here and be correct. Raising is bad until villain starts calling too often with a losing range. As of now your equity is passive.

---

On that token, sometimes there is nothing wrong with being passive if all other options are bad. I would call three streets.

I lean towards the re-raise on the flop. As you know I don't have 50NL experience, but if he does call down with overcards, you'd get paid i would think. probably the most +ev move I think, but again, I'm still new'ish.

results: Villain folded. Claimed he had aces.

I guess my line screamed 'set' to him -- which is understandable given how much people like to slowplay sets on flops, then fire out the turn aggression...

Guess I got lucky

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eugmac

Quote:

---

Infinite aggression over 100

---

By the way, which street is this AF referring to? Is it overall post-flop or for a specific street? Infinite means he's NEVER called anybody's bet or raise, right? And over 100 hands, I presume?

---

dont forget folding. he seems to either bet or fold...no calling...yet.

btw, i dont think calling 3 streets is as expensive as everyone, including me at times, thinks.

everytime i call 3 streets, i think, "wow, that was less expensive than pulling the trigger on the turn raise." and raising flop triggers either a shove by better or a fold by worse. better to win a small pot than no pot, i guess, but i think you are going to win more here, and lose less for the risk involved, by calling all streets.

agreed chopper
dozer- don't be results oriented just in case you are

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kmind

agreed chopper
dozer- don't be results oriented just in case you are

---

I put the "guess I got lucky" for a reason.

I can see the value in calling this one down vs a LAGGy type, though admittedly I'd have trouble calling three streets of aggression from a TAG who couldn't possibly have less than 2pr...

3-bet pre-flop, will also make hand easier to play down the streets.

hate jacks....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sweetlemon69

hate jacks....

---

I hate AT more :mrgreen: