Push flop with set, or play it tricky?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($111.90)
Hero ($197.70)
BB ($252.50)
UTG ($478.95)
MP ($97.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $2, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB raises to $12, MP calls $10, Hero calls $10.

Flop: ($36) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $24, BB raises to $68, MP calls $68, Hero ??


I want the big stack here, often it seems flat calling here looks stronger than a shove. However, villain may not want to play for stacks with what just looks like AK... considering I led flop, he reraised, then a shove by me would be a pretty easy fold for AK.

If you decide not to shove flop, seems like leading the turn is almost as strong, except if you want to nickel and dime him with like a $40 turn bet.


how do you extract here?
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there are enough action-killing cards and suckout cards to make we wanna shove here OOP

I think a shove is the best way to get all his money. He very likely could make a crying call with AK with all the dead money in there and who knows what kind of donk call mp could make. Call really says you have him crushed.

shove

bad flop to slowplay, so i shove everytime

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

shove

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There are some good reasons to call here - He will probably put you on JQ if you call and if he is holding AK which he is a high% of the time, and you would expect him to stack off with two pair then the only card you really dont want to see is a 9

Also, if you call the pot will be 240 and you will have 120 left, if you check the turn, what do you think he will do with AK/KQ/AA? put you AI almost every time

Don't really worry about MP based on the fact he is probably not a good player judging by the way he played the hand and he isn't folding anyway. That being said if you shove villain is probably calling anyway with whatever he is raising the flop with due to how big the pot is and that it will only be 120 to him

Shoving is the only play

calling looks too strong after the cold caller.

Shoving isn't the only play, and calling looks more like JQ than a monster.

I'm not saying shoving isn't the best play, just that there are merits to calling - especially if you were deeper, the deeper you are the better calling is

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

shove

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

Shoving isn't the only play, and calling looks more like JQ than a monster.

I'm not saying shoving isn't the best play, just that there are merits to calling - especially if you were deeper, the deeper you are the better calling is

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http://www.larry-adams.com/FallOnDeafEars.gif

To a lot of better players just calling looks stronger. But does average opponent here think this way? I'd guess average villain here is going to think about hand strength more, and see 2 people going all in, and that his one pair isn't good enough. He may have a false sense of confidence if I call.

This is also on a Sunday, which is donk central. I play enough 100 and 200NL on stars to know who is playing regularly. I forgot to note those things here.

I think maybe just calling was better. Against a known reg, I might shove to look weaker...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

Shoving isn't the only play, and calling looks more like JQ than a monster.

I'm not saying shoving isn't the best play, just that there are merits to calling - especially if you were deeper, the deeper you are the better calling is

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http://www.larry-adams.com/FallOnDeafEars.gif

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What would you say is wrong with this thinking here? Are you advocating that the deeper you are the worse calling is, or that calling looks more like a monster than JQ, because if you had JQ you would shove?

Not at all, I just thought it was funny that people kept posting three word "just shove it" responses even after such a good player as yourself gave reasoning for calling, as though you had never even posted. Pretty sure I'd just shove though because this guy is never folding.

i just assume shove because i think villain is intending on stacking off with that raise.

especially oop you don't want to slowplay here. Think about how the hand could play out on later streets

Well, I shoved and he folded. Boo hoo. Small stack had K10. I am guessing villain correctly folded AK.

lol imagine if u called, he had a draw, hit it, and stacked u ... would u ever wanna call again? lol. i know this is a bit result oriented thinking .. but it's never a mistake to get it in here, by calling you may end up getting it in bad, which would be a huge mistake.

lots of aggros will bluff-raise you here btw so I wouldn't worry too much about him having folded a huge hand

yes, even with the fish yet to act

You may be too solid in the villains eyes for him to reasonably insert KQ or JQ into your range after he raises you. The nice part is that you have a shorty sandwich. This may make calling correct as villain may perceive you to be on a stretched pot odds type line. Add that to the potential you can light value fuck his range on later streets, and I think we have a winner.

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

You may be too solid in the villains eyes for him to reasonably insert KQ or JQ into your range after he raises you.

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good point. maybe with your image and villain's tendencies you should just bet-call, or go for a c/c, c-c, c/r line. do you have any reads?

just noticed MP's stack size...this makes slowplaying it a little less risky for you because it eliminates his implied odds if hes drawing, and you're basically against only 1 opponent. This and the fact that there is no flush draw possible are good arguments for calling, buttttt i still like a shove it looks kinda bluffy and the pot is pretty big anyways.