Did I play it wrong?

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02-20-2008, 05:42 PM
waues

Did I play it wrong?

I am not certain about 2 spots.
1. should I call the preflop raise?
2. should I lead out to bet the flop instead of checking-flolding?

Please advise if you think differently. Thanks!

No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed)

BB ($250.40)
Hero ($203)
MP ($200)
CO ($199)
Button ($112.50)
SB ($150.15)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO raises to $26, 3 folds, Hero calls $18.

Flop: ($55) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $37, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $55
02-20-2008, 05:43 PM
Ragnar4

Ummm... Fistpump shove the flop.

Calling the 3-bet is ok too.

-edit this advice may be wrong I'll delete this tag if someone agrees with me. *lookin at you Marshall*
02-20-2008, 05:56 PM
waues

I put him on AA,KK,QQ, at least JJ or AK.

Because he is a tight player so I guess he probably had me beat if he can bet to that flop.

If he has AA,KK,JJ, I am dead already. The best is he had QQ, or AK, but I doubt that according to his actions.
02-20-2008, 06:07 PM
Ash256

For now and for future reference, we need reads! (If he's an unknown, say so)

Reads are absolutely funkadelically massively important to this hand.
02-20-2008, 06:08 PM
Muzzard

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Ummm... Fistpump shove the flop.

But then we only get hands that have us beat call AA/KK plus maybe AcKc. AcKc has the equity to call anyway like 53% I think.

Ash is right this is dependent on reads. How light does he 3-bet? Has he ever 3-bet before?

If you put him on AA/KK why call preflop, as the implied set odds are marginal. I think we could do with some PT stats/ better reads.
02-20-2008, 06:18 PM
waues

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

For now and for future reference, we need reads!

I agree. Knowing the oponents are vital for this hand.

But if we know he is a tight player. Will you suggest even fold to his preflop re-raise?
02-20-2008, 06:26 PM
Marshall28

::hero folds:: ---??

::marshall scratches head::
02-20-2008, 06:31 PM
waues

:lol:

Maybe that is the worst choice to consider. :oops:
02-20-2008, 06:49 PM
bjsaust

Did you just play QQ for set value only?
02-20-2008, 07:01 PM
waues

Not really. But I normally don't put the pair below KK as that good hand after someone re-raise it.

Because I really don't like to play in a situation where I am pretty much dominated. For example, AA,KK.

Well, maybe I am too passive. For me, QQ, JJ is an tricky hand to play. In my experience, they usually don't win too much but lose a lot when play too aggressively.
02-20-2008, 07:10 PM
sil693

If you dont put him on anything less than KK why call the re-raise with QQ?
02-20-2008, 07:14 PM
cowboyardee

Also, even a really tight player might start reraising surprisingly light pre if you've previously played hands showing you're this tight postflop. Might he have a read on you?
02-20-2008, 07:14 PM
jyms

He three bet you pre flop and you called. What did you expect him to do when you checked to him on the flop even if he's holding AK, TT or even AQs? To think he has only AA, KK or even JJ here is ridiculous. And if you think he has JJ+ or AK you have to 4 bet this preflop, because I can tell you he's not only 3 betting those. Against the tightest $200NL players your con flipping the flop at least. With money behind your probably well into +EV territory. What flop were you looking for when you called?
02-20-2008, 07:30 PM
ChrisTheFish

I'd 4 bet shove pre.

As played, meh. i think you have to CRAI.
02-20-2008, 07:32 PM
jyms

Quote:

Originally Posted by waues

I put him on AA,KK,QQ, at least JJ or AK.

Because he is a tight player so I guess he probably had me beat if he can bet to that flop.

If he has AA,KK,JJ, I am dead already. The best is he had QQ, or AK, but I doubt that according to his actions.

This is on the flop right?
I still think we need to go back to the 3 bet call. What did you think he had wehn he 3 bet? Why did you call?
02-20-2008, 07:56 PM
waues

Because I haven't entered pot for a while and I was in UTG. So, I put him on Very good hand. But I was not sure if my QQ was big enough because he might be somehow overplaying JJ,QQ, AKs, AQs, even AJs in position.So I called.

Alternatively, there might be two other possible plays for this hand:

1. re-raise again on pre-flop, if he shove, I fold? If he call, I shove on this kind of flop?

2. I just call his re-raise on pre-flop and bet 3/4 pot on this flop. If he shove, I fold. If he call, I check-fold on later street when he bet significantly?

Would these to be better play?
02-20-2008, 08:04 PM
Numbr2intheWorld

Have you been at the table for a while? If so, what is your image and what is his image?

This is like a not-even-think-about-it shove for me against an unknown.
02-20-2008, 08:07 PM
jyms

Quote:

Originally Posted by waues

Because I haven't entered pot for a while and I was in UTG. So, I put him on Very good hand. But I was not sure if my QQ was big enough because he might be somehow overplaying JJ,QQ, AKs, AQs, even AJs in position.So I called.

If this is what you think pre flop, shove it in. even if you decide to call, and get the flop you got, which of these hands is not going to Cbet the flop? How do you go from thinking this to checking the flop and thinking he has AA, KK or JJ just because he bets?
02-20-2008, 08:08 PM
waues

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I still think we need to go back to the 3 bet call. What did you think he had wehn he 3 bet? Why did you call?

I thought he might have KK,AA, QQ. But I can't be sure. I would like to see the flop to find out if my hand is good or not. That's why I called.

I think checking-folding on this flop is a BIG mistake.
02-20-2008, 08:24 PM
waues

Quote:

Originally Posted by Massimo

Have you been at the table for a while? If so, what is your image and what is his image?

This is like a not-even-think-about-it shove for me against an unknown.

The opponent is a tight player. I am also tight at this table. That's why I put him on very big hand preflop.
02-20-2008, 08:31 PM
jyms

waues, sorry to keep on you about this, but you did not put him on a big hand preflop. YOU had the big hand preflop. You have already said

Quote:

So, I put him on Very good hand. But I was not sure if my QQ was big enough because he might be somehow overplaying JJ,QQ, AKs, AQs, even AJs in position.So I called.

You are killing this range of hands. Of all of these hands none of them will not C bet the flop when checked to. Why do you keep saying AA KK or QQ?
02-20-2008, 08:32 PM
waues

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

Originally Posted by waues

Because I haven't entered pot for a while and I was in UTG. So, I put him on Very good hand. But I was not sure if my QQ was big enough because he might be somehow overplaying JJ,QQ, AKs, AQs, even AJs in position.So I called.

If this is what you think pre flop, shove it in. even if you decide to call, and get the flop you got, which of these hands is not going to Cbet the flop? How do you go from thinking this to checking the flop and thinking he has AA, KK or JJ just because he bets?

Hi jyms, here is my thinking process.

I checked the flop because I would like to see if he could show some real strength again. He bet more than half of the pot, he may declare 2 things:
1. he can at least beat the J, because I might hold AJ, JQ as well.
2. he is not afraid the check-raise. If I did check-raise, he might be have to make the choice between fold and all-in. Which is not nice for him.

Maybe I was too tight and passive in this hand. At least I think I should take the lead to bet on flop.
02-20-2008, 08:56 PM
waues

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

waues, sorry to keep on you about this, but you did not put him on a big hand preflop. YOU had the big hand preflop. You have already said

Quote:

So, I put him on Very good hand. But I was not sure if my QQ was big enough because he might be somehow overplaying JJ,QQ, AKs, AQs, even AJs in position.So I called.

You are killing this range of hands. Of all of these hands none of them will not C bet the flop when checked to. Why do you keep saying AA KK or QQ?

Hi jyms, Thanks for your helpful reply.

Do you think if I could think in this way?

When the opponent 3-bet me on preflop. I put him on a range of hand.
If, I put him on big pair AA,KK only because he is so tight. I should immediately fold there.
If, I don't believe it. I put him on a wider range, say, AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,AK,AQ,AJ, I should shove preflop.
If, I decide to call preflop. The better play is at least bet first.

Sorry this might look like a bit mechanical, but it somehow in a correct track of thinking process?
02-20-2008, 09:01 PM
jyms

What you put him on is up to you, how you act depends on what you put him on. Only then can you decide what is right or wrong in how you play the hand. Having a better hand doesn't always mean shoving all in and having a worse hand doesn't always mean folding.
02-21-2008, 03:08 AM
noble007

If you're asking what the std play is in this spot pre-flop with QQ and guidelines for playing on the flop in a re-raised pot it might be helpful to read sauce's guide.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ea-t58095.html

& yeah you should generally 4bet pre-flop if you are going to be out of position post flop even against a fairly tight player.
02-21-2008, 03:23 AM
shazbox

It is like you play 200NL and have never heard of somebody c-betting