Can a poker site "go under"?

So this is probably (see: definitely) in the wrong forum, but its the only forum I really post in and thought it would get the most views. Feel free to move it though.

I guess in general my question is just "can a poker site go under?"

I seem to have an ongoing debate with one of my friends (who's not knowledgeable about the poker industry) about how I should withdraw some (a good portion) of my roll to "make sure I have the cash" in case the poker site goes down and nobody can get their money out.

His further argument is that recently a well established bank in europe had some fraud (I forget which one) in which they couldn't pay back their clients but since its a bank, they were insured and covered by their country/government who loaned them money to pay back their clients and keep the bank liquid. His argument is that there is no such "backing" or "insurance" for these poker sites by the government/country, so if a bank can go down so can a poker site.

Anyways, my reply is always "I need the money on the site cause I have too many swings, and I dont wanna drop down levels" etc etc.. and "the site won't go down", though really I'm not well versed on this topic to REALLY claim they can't go under.

Is this possible? I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on this. (the same goes for third party sites, click2pay, neteller etc.. and if they can "go under" as well). Pretty much any institution other than a bank, that would be holding our poker rolls.

Micro-gaming is having some issues right now since the casino that was backing them or whatever just pulled out. Now like 90% of their skins have players' money in limbo.

of course a poker site can go out of business. i mean by definition it is a business, and business' can go out of business. i think your friend is giving you advice that any fiscally responsible person would tell you. it is smart to keep money out, in case the worst does happen, but like you said, you dont want to drop down limits if you run bad. idk, just depends how paranoid and worried you are.

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Originally Posted by will641

of course a poker site can go out of business. i mean by definition it is a business, and business' can go out of business. i think your friend is giving you advice that any fiscally responsible person would tell you. it is smart to keep money out, in case the worst does happen, but like you said, you dont want to drop down limits if you run bad. idk, just depends how paranoid and worried you are.

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I guess the reason why I ask is that I know that its a business, and business' can go under. BUT I wonder if one poker site was about to go down, if other poker sites would step in to help out to preserve the integrity of online poker as a whole.

I'd imagine if one poker site went down, all other poker players would get VERY worried about their stability on all other sites. It could definitely cause a ripple effect.

just throwing ideas out there, you could email support and ask what their policy is if they did go under. i have no idea if this would work, or how accurate it would be.

Once I've got a decent bankroll I'm stashing anything over 15 buyins in savings.

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Once I've got a decent bankroll I'm stashing anything over 15 buyins in savings.

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But if you went on a downswing would you be willing to redeposit it back into your account so you could stay at the same level, or would you drop down?

I guess I don't mind withdrawing if I'm willing to put it back in if I need it. But I feel like the "loss in expected earnings by dropping down" would often outweigh the expecting interest earnings from savings.

Will - yah thats a decent idea, maybe asking support would be alright.

Just because support claims their policy is 100% refund all the time. Doesn't mean that once the company does go under, that they are liable for their own policy. Remember these companies are all offshore of america, and therefore completely immune to all american jurisdiction should they play dirty.

There was a company: Dragon Poker, that was designed just to steal peoples money and run. The guys got away with it.

There's nothing wrong with the idea of keeping an extremely large sum of money split up into multiple spots, as long as you're willing to still consider it your BR, and exercise BR management as if it were 1 lump sum.

Shit if I wasn't moving up any more I'd keep like 10 bi online. If we're downswinging we need to step back and relax and reevaluate no matter if we 'know' we're just running bad. Redepositing isn't that hard. If it is then we need to keep more online obv.

Apparently Ivey recently busto'd his FTP roll like 170k or something. No way he was thinking he had enough on there to cover swings.

Decide how much you want to keep in "reserve" and the rest in your poker account. Since most players agree that having a "reserve" which will be put into your account when on a downswing is your br only spread in two places you're just covering your bases. The thing is that people will think "it's in my bank, I'm not putting it back in" instead of considering it as their br.

Oh, and the shitty bank which went under is Northern Rock. Which has now been taken over by the UK government I believe.

The only logical reason to keep more than like 25 buy-ins online is if you're committing income tax fraud. Redepositing ain't that hard but I'm sure the poker sites thank you guys for letting them earn interest on your money!

To be fair I guess the above only applies to Stars and FTP, it can be hard to get money in or out of the smaller sites. On the other hand I've heard about the Microgaming skins possibly stealing everyone's bankrolls. A lot of the smaller sites are super shady which is one of the reasons I only play on the two big sites and if I did play on a small site, I wouldn't keep a meaningful amount of money on one.

Hey guys, anyoen remember neteller?

Yeah *that* was fun.

Heres a good formula for poker bankrolls
MT ratio *2 = buyins needed.

Simple. You can always deposit more and within like 2 minutes.

LOL @ thinking that 8 buyins on-site is enough to 4-table.

edit:
- you're gonna get tilt issues for having to redeposit after a few lost pots
- you're gonna miss hands and actions at the table while youre messing with neteller, etc
- eventually you're gonna play with scared money because you don't want to go busto and have to deal with redepositing.
- for non-US players exchange rates really fuck you over if you're constantly withrawing/redepositing to/from your bank account.
- for US players I think depositing is just a major pain in the ass?

I keep 15BI at every site I play plus 5-10 in Neteller/Moneybookers, redepositing to 15 after every losing session and cashing out excess maybe biweekly.

where do people keep their excess BR? I assume somewhere online that collects interest with easy access... does such a place exist?

I like to keep a decent chunk on the poker site for psychological reasons. Like a little bit ago my BR was spread out over 3 sites, and something just didn't feel right. Once it was all collected on one I felt much more secure and wasn't scared of busting my roll on different sites. Thats just how I felt anyways.

Yeah you'd probably need more like 15-20 in reality, but the people who keep 100+ buy-ins online deserve a "LOL" more than euph does.

I think that a lot of people who were losing players when they first started out, told themselves that they were going to build their bankroll up from $50 or whatever and never re-deposit again. This was probably a good idea at first, but when you're beating 2-4NL I think you've come far enough that you no longer need to hold yourself to this.

Cons of keeping a small amount of money online: you might have to put on some real clothes, go to the bank, and re-deposit.

Cons of keeping a large amount of money online: Most of the money that you'll more than likely never need, is just sitting there earning no interest, and you have no recourse if a poker site goes down and they steal your bankroll or keep it in limbo for upwards of a year (Neteller, Pokerspot, Pokes Poker, maybe Microgaming, etc. etc.)

Seems kinda not close.

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Originally Posted by BigLRIP

where do people keep their excess BR? I assume somewhere online that collects interest with easy access... does such a place exist?

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Look up Emigrant Direct, ING Direct, or HSBC Direct.

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Originally Posted by griffey24

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Once I've got a decent bankroll I'm stashing anything over 15 buyins in savings.

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But if you went on a downswing would you be willing to redeposit it back into your account so you could stay at the same level, or would you drop down?

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Happily redeposit + the deposit would take 24 hours so I'd have time to control steaming if I somehow burnt 15 buyins.



Problem is though, it's nice to see my bankroll clearly at a poker site - If I had four figures in savings, could I stop myself from spending it on random shit?

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Originally Posted by HalvSame

- for non-US players exchange rates really fuck you over if you're constantly withrawing/redepositing to/from your bank account.

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This is one of the major reasons I've been hesitant to make any largescale withdrawals right now. I'm canadian, but my account on interpoker is in USD and its a really bad time to withdraw right now (given the crappy USD at the moment).

Seems like its a pretty general consensus on keeping only about 25ish buyins online and just banking the rest. I'll have to look into getting my act together on that.

So it is safe to say that it is POSSIBLE that a online poker site like interpoker COULD theoretically go under, and they would have nobody there to back them up/pay out the money they owe? .. interesting.. interesting..

I guess its just better to play it safe!

wow i actually never really realized till now that if you have a good sized b.r., then it is actually a waste of money to keep excess money in there, when it could be working for you collecting interest in a bank, or reinvesting it.

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Originally Posted by HalvSame

- for non-US players exchange rates really fuck you over if you're constantly withrawing/redepositing to/from your bank account.

I keep 15BI at every site I play plus 5-10 in Neteller/Moneybookers, redepositing to 15 after every losing session and cashing out excess maybe biweekly.

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Very true, and nice approach
I tried to make an account in Switzerland in Euro, but when I mentioned "Internet" and "Gambling" they told me to take a hike
(Yes, you can open them with no money on hand as depo)

The only foreseeable option in my specific case is Singapore, but the 1 major drawback about that one is that you actually have to be there in order to open an account (Not over the net like the Swiss offer)

This of course would not be really problematic until I (if I ever) become baller-ass, but I like being prepared and planning ahead ;)

jack change ur avatar back.

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Originally Posted by will641

jack change ur avatar back.

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lol, this one has many fans
i'll put up a new one next week or so

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Originally Posted by griffey24

This is one of the major reasons I've been hesitant to make any largescale withdrawals right now. I'm canadian, but my account on interpoker is in USD and its a really bad time to withdraw right now (given the crappy USD at the moment).

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Can you request cheques in USD from them? Open a USD bank account and keep it as USD for a while.

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Originally Posted by HalvSame

LOL @ thinking that 8 buyins on-site is enough to 4-table.

edit:
- you're gonna get tilt issues for having to redeposit after a few lost pots
- you're gonna miss hands and actions at the table while youre messing with neteller, etc
- eventually you're gonna play with scared money because you don't want to go busto and have to deal with redepositing.
- for non-US players exchange rates really fuck you over if you're constantly withrawing/redepositing to/from your bank account.
- for US players I think depositing is just a major pain in the ass?

I keep 15BI at every site I play plus 5-10 in Neteller/Moneybookers, redepositing to 15 after every losing session and cashing out excess maybe biweekly.

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Why is that LOL? If you drop more than 3 buyins regularly, you should probably just stop playing poker altogether. Your only good point up there is the exchange rates. No one "misses hands while dealing with neteller" or "plays with scared money because they dont want to take 20 seconds to type in a login/password", nor is depositing a major pain in the ass. How hard did you think to make that crap up lol

Anyway, change it to 2.5*tables if you want, who really gives a fuck? The point is dont leave the entire BR.

I always keep +50 buy ins at a site(i play only at one), cause when i lose more then 10% in a session it really affects me...

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

Micro-gaming is having some issues right now since the casino that was backing them or whatever just pulled out. Now like 90% of their skins have players' money in limbo.

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Yea IMO, having your entire bankroll on MG is not fun :( .

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Originally Posted by courtiebee

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Originally Posted by griffey24

This is one of the major reasons I've been hesitant to make any largescale withdrawals right now. I'm canadian, but my account on interpoker is in USD and its a really bad time to withdraw right now (given the crappy USD at the moment).

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Can you request cheques in USD from them? Open a USD bank account and keep it as USD for a while.

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Yah good idea courtiebee. I should ask them about this. Well I guess I'm actually withdrawing from click2pay and they are sending me euro cheques but maybe I can get a USD cheque somehow.

Avoiding currency conversion right now is a gooood idea!

or maybe its a bad idea, since USD might go even lower
I am just gradually cashing out from USD into CAD

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

Why is that LOL? If you drop more than 3 buyins regularly, you should probably just stop playing poker altogether.

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:(

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

Why is that LOL? If you drop more than 3 buyins regularly, you should probably just stop playing poker altogether.

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Wow, I drop three most days at one time or another. Not always down 3 BI's but dropping 3 is pretty damn easy.

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Originally Posted by Alexos

or maybe its a bad idea, since USD might go even lower
I am just gradually cashing out from USD into CAD

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Yeah I cashed out $1k from PS today and I spent a good ten minutes trying to decide whether or not I should get a cheque in USD or CAD. I finally decided on CAD because it would really suck if the USD went lower ... plus PS doesn't charge any fees to exchange the currency, which is really nice.

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

If you drop more than 3 buyins regularly, you should probably just stop playing poker altogether.

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Maybe if you play a rock style but if you're an active player then 3BI swings are super standard. I mean are you just trolling or have you never looked at a monthly graph? Open the february graph thread and count the number of 3BI+ downswings.

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No one "misses hands while dealing with neteller"

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I'm not talking about timing out or w/e (but if you're playing 6+ tables I wouldnt be surprised if I times out on one), I'm talking about missing what happens in hands you're not involved in and thus your reads will suffer. You'll also probably play tigher/more passive just because you don't want to get involved in marginally +EV spots because you're focused on depositing. And when you start noticing that this is happening, _then_ you start thinking "well I don't want to make the deposit yet, I'll see if I can ride it out" and wait until you are closer to busto on the account. I personally think it is pretty damned hard not to turn into scared money subconciously when the account is almost busto, and I've been playing almost 250k hands at my current stakes so it's not like the amounts are scary to me.

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or "plays with scared money because they dont want to take 20 seconds to type in a login/password", nor is depositing a major pain in the ass.

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Yeah people are transfering thousands of dollars through people they've only met online even though it's no hassle to redeposit from their bank account. (and no, I'm not only talking about americans. Daily/weekly/monthly deposit/withdrawal limits are problems on alot of sites.)

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How hard did you think to make that crap up lol

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Yeah I just pulled this out of my ass. In no way have I ever ran into this problem personally.

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Anyway, change it to 2.5*tables if you want, who really gives a fuck? The point is dont leave the entire BR.

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My point is that the potential downsides to having a too small online bankroll will probably outweigh the 5% interest or w/e you get on your money in the bank.

:heart: Halv

Truth is it depends, it's like asking "How many BI do I need to move up to the next lvl?" You can move up with 2, or 10, or wait till you have 100 if u wish.

Ideally it's obviously a good idea to keep money off sites and invest it instead, but some people just can't play their A-game if they only have 8 buyins available. In which case it's pretty retarded for them play on a low BR just for a few % pts of interest. Euph you have no idea what you're talking about do u.

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Originally Posted by HalvSame

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

If you drop more than 3 buyins regularly, you should probably just stop playing poker altogether.

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Maybe if you play a rock style but if you're an active player then 3BI swings are super standard. I mean are you just trolling or have you never looked at a monthly graph? Open the february graph thread and count the number of 3BI+ downswings.

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Yeah this is kinda a dumb statement.I guess i should quit poker cause losing +3buy ins is something that happens on a regular base.

Way to miss the point guys. *golf clap*

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Ideally it's obviously a good idea to keep money off sites and invest it instead, but some people just can't play their A-game if they only have 8 buyins available. In which case it's pretty retarded for them play on a low BR just for a few % pts of interest. Euph you have no idea what you're talking about do u.

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Oh jesus christ. First, I never said shit about investing. Second, you agreed with me in everything I said, and then said I had no idea what I'm talking about.

So... yeah... fuck off.

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Heres a good formula for poker bankrolls
MT ratio *2 = buyins needed.

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So lets use halv's 6+ example and call it 10 tabling for sake of roudness.

10*2 = 20. You dont think you can survive 10 tabling with 20 buyins fairly safely, knowing the fact you can redeposit at any time? Do you really drop 10+ buyins THAT often that it would be a problem for you?

Then, AS I SAID, up it to 2.5x or up it to 3x. If you tilt when 4 tabling and lose 3 buyins. If clicking the really big DEPOSIT button tilts you for whatever fucking reason/excuse.

It doesnt matter, the point is dont put your whole BR on a site.

Christ.

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

Why is that LOL? If you drop more than 3 buyins regularly, you should probably just stop playing poker altogether.

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:(

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No worries man. That is one of the dumbest things I've read on this forum in a while.

It's all about one's comfort level.

I don't like playing on a site with too few buyins. For example, if I have only $4000 on PS, I am not going to sit at 4+ tables of $400NL, even if I do have $40, 000 in my bank.
Once I withdraw money, it's never going to get redeposited again.

That's just the way I feel, and I am sure there are a lot of people that feel the same.

Its just that some ppl can start playing different when they lose like 30-40% of their BR in a session, they dont wanna redeposit.If that happens then thats what i call bad BRmanagement

I actually emailed my site's support (interpoker) and asked them about what safeguards are in place to ensure all players will always be able to get their money etc..

I'm not really sure what kind of answer I was hoping for, cause surely any answer was gonna be biased in terms of making me think everything was fine.

This was what they told me:

"Ecash is powered by CryptoLogic Inc which is listed on the London Toronto and Nasdaq stock exchanges. InterCasino/InterPoker is the oldest and one of the largest online casinos/poker rooms in the world which should also give you an immense amount of comfort. In addition we are licensed and regulated by the Maltese government who regularly ensure that we are able to repay not only ecash balances but also any wins.

I hope this puts your mind at rest"

Reading will's posts in this thread makes me a sad panda. :(

I like having my entire BR on a site, good or bad. I'm on stars, so I'm not too worried, but if my BR went bye bye obv. I'd be as pissed as a horny mountain gorilla on HGH.

I use eCheck on stars, and so depositing is pretty much instantaneous. I like making a distinction between my poker bankroll and my bank account though- I play with whatever I have on the site, and that's all.

Otherwise, I"m worried I'll be depositing vast amounts of money and depleting my "life bankroll" rapidly after a tilt session. ("must... get... unstuck...") The # that shows up on stars is my "fuck around" money and my bank account holds the "don't fuck around money," and never the twain shall meet.

I would feel much safer right now having a large roll on PS or FT simply because they are the biggest sites, and they spend seriously on advertising. Companies that do that are all about building their brand, not getting ready to go under. Of course, any company can go off track due to mismanagement or other things, and you just never know for sure.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

Reading will's posts in this thread makes me a sad panda. :(

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QFT. Nice bump.

I opened an entirely new bank account at a new bank specifically for poker. So that way, as I see it, withdrawing to that account doesn't automatically make that "money to spend" as it still belongs to my poker money. I imagine that once I've moved up to $25NL and above, I'll be regularly withdrawing to my bank account so that if my account somehow gets hacked, I won't lose my whole BR. Hopefully my foresight is 20/20!