dead money play?

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03-09-2008, 10:35 AM
Chopper

dead money play?

i wonder about dead money situations when playing short. are we strong enough? are villains weak enough?

villains to my right are 55/25 and 50/15, respectively. but, i havent seen the open shove from anyone yet. i can tell you the shover looked rather tilty, tho. he had bounced his stack up and down and all over the place. very push happy when short w/ any A. but, seemed to chill on the pushing a bit w/ a decent stack.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($13.30)
UTG+1 ($9.00)
CO ($4.30)
BTN ($7.50)
Hero ($6.60)
BB ($2.90)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is SB :ah: :qh:
UTG raises to $0.3, UTG+1 calls $0.3, CO raises to $0.5, BTN goes all-in $7.5, UTG+1 says "big family all in", [color=#777777]Hero calls??
03-09-2008, 11:36 AM
dalecooper

I don't love or hate that call (in isolation). I suspect his range is wide enough that you're at least 50% against it, and sometimes you have him dominated, and sometimes he has you dominated. He had any pocket pair a lot there.

But to de-isolate the call, there are still four people to act, and two of them have shown aggression. When you call this you have to live with the fact that you might end up in exactly what UTG+1 said in the chat. I don't know how delighted I am to end up in a "big family all in" with AQ.
03-09-2008, 12:30 PM
jyms

That's not dead money, that's not an open shove and you have AQs
03-09-2008, 12:54 PM
bode

buy in for a full stack ffs or move down to 5nl. sorry if you had just lost a hand or something but short stacking 10nl is just lol.
03-09-2008, 12:58 PM
jyms

Nothing like taking a fishes biggest disadvantage away. I didn't realize this was a short stacking situation :lol: The biggest advantage players have over the fish is turn and river play. Are you playing against a bunch of tough regs and want to take away their postflop advantage and gain more FE?
03-09-2008, 03:03 PM
nutsinho

lol
03-09-2008, 04:07 PM
Chopper

nope, just goofing. laugh all you want. there are more ways than one to play poker. it may produce better results. it may produce worse results.

i was more concerned with how to play the hand, than to worry about "buy-in full, please" type stuff. i think i've been around long enough, that i dont deserve that comment. no personal offense meant. it just didnt do anything to help.

btw, i folded.
03-09-2008, 04:21 PM
nutsinho

we are saying buy in full because it WILL produce better results, and if it doesnt, then you need more experience playing a full stack so that eventually it IS your best option.
03-09-2008, 04:26 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

nope, just goofing. laugh all you want. there are more ways than one to play poker. it may produce better results. it may produce worse results.

i was more concerned with how to play the hand, than to worry about "buy-in full, please" type stuff. i think i've been around long enough, that i dont deserve that comment. no personal offense meant. it just didnt do anything to help.

btw, i folded.

Questions like this belong here, and so do the players who post them.
03-09-2008, 04:29 PM
jyms

I agree. If your no beginner Chopper, maybe you should be posting these hands in the Strat forums. If you want non beginner advice, start posting in the non beginner forums.
03-09-2008, 04:53 PM
Chopper

i understand that short-stacking will get these responses. fine. and, i thought i actually had some respect from some of you guys. at least the respect of someone that has more than 3 active brain cells. but, i guess i was wrong. that's cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I agree. If your no beginner Chopper, maybe you should be posting these hands in the Strat forums. If you want non beginner advice, start posting in the non beginner forums.

i dont post HHs, usually, in the strat forums. i post them in the appropriate FR/SH forum. and, i dont think a "dead money" question, albeit a strat question, should be asked to the majority of regular posters in beginner's. i came here because this is where the players i respect are usually found.
03-09-2008, 04:58 PM
Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

there are more ways than one to play poker.

one of them is best. yours isnt. The whole point of the game is to maximise your EV with each decision. Part of that is playing a certain hand the right way. Part of it is not playing when drunk/ tilted. Part of it is buying in for the right amount. Anything other than the optimum is a wrong decision, and wrong decisions cost you money.
03-09-2008, 05:04 PM
Roel

Okay so two mistakes here. Not buying in for full, and calling (well ok u didn't call so really one mistake). you wanted advice, you got it. now move on. Don't really get the whole 'You're a beginner - no i'm not'-discussion.

But hey what do i know.
03-09-2008, 05:24 PM
Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

there are more ways than one to play poker.

one of them is best. yours isnt.

for me? or for everybody?

for me, short-stacking has been minimizing losses because i am not good on the river. so, i take it out. sure, i could "work on it," but i figured i would go to shorting for a bit. i reserve the right to buy back in full at any time.

and, ya know, its kind of minimizing losses, thereby, maximizing gains. so, best for me, best for you, best for the poker community....its all depends on what a person is trying to do for his/her game.

i have read for years that deep is the way to go. and, for the longest time, i agreed...vehemently. but, now, i am questioning that theory. and, right now, i am winning more than i was. variance? we'll see.

i just thought i would get a little credit for already knowing that. (and, i am talking to the people i know right now...hell, we've all pm'd at one time or another) i am only making an adjustment, after consideration, that i feel is best for me, specifically. i haven't once said, in this thread, that MY way is best...it may not be. but, it MIGHT be, too...for me.

if any one of you (same people here) did that, i wouldnt be ripping you for making a change. i would commend you for not being afraid to try something new. /whine
03-09-2008, 05:43 PM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

and, ya know, its kind of minimizing losses, thereby, maximizing gains.

a losing player should be worrying about minimizing loses, a winning player is worried about maximizing gains. Although the two go together somewhat, the mindsets behind them are far apart imo.
03-09-2008, 05:48 PM
Pelion

chopper if you suck at river play you need to practice river play. playing in a way that takes river decisions out of your game isnt going to make you any better.
03-09-2008, 05:50 PM
jyms

Poker has been analyzed to death. You can't reinvent the wheel. Not at $10NL anyway. Things don't change down there. Anybody who's bad gets beat, anybody good moves up. The rest play for fun or wallow in micro stakes forever playing barely BE and paying rake forever.

You're OP a question about short stacking loose fish at $10NL. There is no answer. Short stacking requires you to take away peoples implied odds, use FE to steal pots by shoving flops and basically be a pain in the ass to anybody looking to play poker post flop. Your playing $10NL. There is nobody using implied odds to make plays, you have no FE against these players in the pot and you are giving to many odds for chasers because your not short stacked, your 2/3 stacked. Basically your doing everything wrong. I have no idea why I even bother with you. I told you before I was done with your posts and the first one I decide to respond to you give your same ol' "I'm just trying stuff out at the micros". No your not, you don't get it and never will, because you refuse to listen to players that have done it in the past.

Nobody spends the amount of time you do on these forums and "plays $10NL for fun" Stop kidding yourself.
03-09-2008, 05:56 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i understand that short-stacking will get these responses. fine. and, i thought i actually had some respect from some of you guys. at least the respect of someone that has more than 3 active brain cells. but, i guess i was wrong. that's cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I agree. If your no beginner Chopper, maybe you should be posting these hands in the Strat forums. If you want non beginner advice, start posting in the non beginner forums.

i dont post HHs, usually, in the strat forums. i post them in the appropriate FR/SH forum. and, i dont think a "dead money" question, albeit a strat question, should be asked to the majority of regular posters in beginner's. i came here because this is where the players i respect are usually found.

Objectively, the question has very little to do with the dead money. It's just a simple EV calculation. You're asking whether or not you should be calling this shove preflop with AQs. You know how to figure out what range this is profitable against, and you know how PokerStove works -- both of these are things that are covered in the beginner's forum. By posting this hand, you're showing that you don't know how to do either of those things, which is why this question belongs in the beginner's forum.

As for short-stacking, it definitely has its place in certain games, but 10nl is not the game. You will gain nothing by avoiding your weaknesses this early into your life as a poker player. If you wait until you are at a higher level to try to learn basic play on later streets, it will be much more difficult and you will lose a lot more money in the process.

Short-stacking is best reserved for situations where you don't have an advantage with deeper stacks. When you play without a full stack at 10nl, you're saying that those players are better than you, and you need a crutch to lean on when you play with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i think i've been around long enough, that i dont deserve that comment. no personal offense meant. it just didnt do anything to help.

The first sentence in this quote honestly pissed me off a little. It's like you're saying you're too good for our advice, but obviously you're not, or you wouldn't be getting bitched at by almost everyone who has replied to this thread for short-stacking 10nl.

It's time for a bit of a reality check, Chopper. You have over 2300 posts on one of the top poker forums in existence, but you're short-stacking 10nl. If you want to get with the program, drop the ego, and start actually listening and applying the advice that people give you here, then you'll start making money at poker. If you don't want to, that's cool too, but you should stop wasting peoples time posting shit like this.