Made hand Vs Draw or TPWK on the turn. shove or 3/4 PSB?

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03-13-2008, 09:05 AM
Pelion

Made hand Vs Draw or TPWK on the turn. shove or 3/4 PSB?

Heres another spot im not sure of. We have TPTK+ and have raised preflop and bet the flop. We have one other villain in the hand with us who called preflop and called our flop bet. He is loosish-passiveish with 75bbs. Maybe something like 24/8/1. The board is something like

Q :heart: 7:heart: 2:club: 5:spade:

and we have 1.5-2 x pot left to play with.

Do we go for the overshove and risk folding worse top pair hands or do we bet around pot and shove any river? Or do we do something else? I know this is opponent dependent but Im just wondering about the most common line people take here. I used to just shove it in but Ive been potting and paying off on the river lately. Im not sure which is best though.
03-13-2008, 10:14 AM
Kagey

Depends on vilain. My standard line is 2/3 pot, unless I think they'll call more. This is also the line I take with air. if I have TP+ I'll value bet any non flush river for 3/4 pot. Unless I think thy are likelt to bluff then I might check. I probably block bet any flush that come in, 'cos these passive types still usually only call. I'm sure I'm leaving some money on the table.
03-13-2008, 10:54 AM
arkana

Half pot > pot > shove (you get more value from draws\weaker made hands and you don't commit yourself)
03-13-2008, 10:56 AM
Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkana

Half pot > pot > shove (you get more value from draws\weaker made hands and you don't commit yourself)

are you c/f if the draw comes in?
03-13-2008, 11:18 AM
bode

shoving here folds out way too much. We want villain to pay as much as he is willing to for a FD here, so i think 1/2 pot is a bit too small even though we arent giving him odds. I like 2/3 here. If we are in position and the flush hits, alot of small stakes villains, especially loose/passives, will check expecting us to bet and we can just check behind. If he shoves then we have a decision to make.
03-14-2008, 07:52 AM
Pelion

How about when we will be out of position on the river? This is the spot I am finding myself in the most trouble in.

Do we check/fold because they wont usually bet top pair hands?

Or do we just shove for 1/2 - 3/4 pot because they wont usually fold top pair hands?
03-14-2008, 08:12 AM
arkana

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkana

Half pot > pot > shove (you get more value from draws\weaker made hands and you don't commit yourself)

are you c/f if the draw comes in?

The opponent you described sounds like a straight forward player, who is unlikely to try to bluff with a weak made hand when the flush comes in (especially if you are in position). So yes i could fold this on the river against an opponent like that getting good odds.

Even if you do call the river the half pot bet line is more EV as you get more value from weaker made hands while still losing the same when his drawing hands hit.

Most players dont really adjust their bet sizing and stick to a standard bet size relative to the pot and i think this can be a mistake. Adjusting your bet sizes against good thinking players is tricky and will require some balancing but against the weaker players it can be very profitable.