Line check?

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03-13-2008, 04:58 PM
aka_red

Line check?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($93.65)
Button ($32.20)
SB ($25.80)
Hero ($24.75)
UTG ($10.80)
UTG+1 ($9.20)
MP1 ($27.55)
MP2 ($4.30)
MP3 ($12.05)

No reads on villain

Preflop: Hero is BB with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
4 folds, MP3 raises to $0.5, 2 folds, SB calls $0.40, Hero raises to $1.75, MP3 calls $1.25, SB folds.

Flop: ($4) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2.5, MP3 raises to $5, Hero calls $2.50.

Turn: ($14) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $5.3 (All-In), Hero calls $5.30.

River: ($0) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $24.60

Same session diff V

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($4.65)
MP2 ($10.95)
CO ($32.45)
Hero ($40.55)
SB ($7.85)
BB ($24)
UTG ($3.65)
UTG+1 ($53.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qs.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ts.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.85) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/th.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $1.

Turn: ($2.85) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qd.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2, Hero calls $2.

River: ($6.85) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/kd.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $50.35 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $-43.50
03-13-2008, 07:56 PM
Robb

Absent reads, hand 1 is ok through the flop. If you're gonna fold, you need to do it when he min-raises. If you're planning on calling the turn bet all-in, just shove over the top on the flop while you have some fold equity against the draws.

Hand 2 get it all in, but be the one making big bets. Bet a full pot-sized bet over his turn bet, so $5. This shove may be from strength, but it's also likely to be a draw plus fold equity. You cut into his leverage with a big turn raise. Also, if he shoves over your big turn raise, you're a lot more certain it's a strong made hand instead of a bluff. And you may be able to get away from it. But I'm probably going broke if he can beat two pair.
03-13-2008, 08:56 PM
pokerfan

hand 1: after your 3 bet preflop , you've got to get all-in on this flop

hand 2: you should raise big on the turn. Also,i dont like your limp on the button, either a raise or fold.
03-13-2008, 09:09 PM
Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan

Also,i dont like your limp on the button, either a raise or fold.

I missed this. A raise keeps you out of a lot trouble postflop here, imo. nh pokerfan.
03-14-2008, 01:14 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan

hand 2: you should raise big on the turn. Also,i dont like your limp on the button, either a raise or fold.

This is silly. I will over-limp lots of trash after a terrible limper. It's not exactly my bread & butter, but that line does show a profit. Particularly if the limper won't give up easy post-flop or plays too fast and loose in small pots. It also can drag a TAgg into the pot OOP who isn't used to playing weak hands .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

A raise keeps you out of a lot trouble postflop here.

Why? I can think of a couple great reasons to raise, staying out of trouble isn't one of them.
03-14-2008, 01:28 AM
pgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

just shove over the top on the flop while you have some fold equity against the draws.

I didn't think we wanted fold equity against a draw. I guess the only time we would want that is if it's a bigger mistake for opp to fold a draw than to call. Haven't looked closely enough at the hand to make a decision either way.

Still want to get it in ASAP in hand 1 thinking we are good here so often, and it doesn't matter too much if we aren't.
03-14-2008, 01:57 AM
BankItDrew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan

hand 2: you should raise big on the turn. Also,i dont like your limp on the button, either a raise or fold.

This is silly. I will over-limp lots of trash after a terrible limper. It's not exactly my bread & butter, but that line does show a profit. Particularly if the limper won't give up easy post-flop or plays too fast and loose in small pots. It also can drag a TAgg into the pot OOP who isn't used to playing weak hands .

I disagree. I think villain loves their hand or is on a draw. Either case, I want to be pushing more chips in with top two. Also, I tend to make most of my profit when I assume villain has second best hand ie. Qxclubs, AA (yes, checked UTG).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

A raise keeps you out of a lot trouble postflop here.

Why? I can think of a couple great reasons to raise, staying out of trouble isn't one of them.

I agree. I've lost out on many profits I'm sure, when I'm raising on the button in this situation. It's a SC on the button in a small pot, I don't see anything -EV with limping.
03-14-2008, 06:58 AM
pokerfan

hmmm, last time i limped in JTs behind one loose limper on the button, i stacked off when small blind complete Q high flush :twisted: If you dont have strong postflop hand reading skills, i still think its more +EV to raise limpers on the button.
side note: limp in ace suited rag on the button is much better than lower suited cards IMO. i love it sometimes.
03-14-2008, 08:38 AM
Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

just shove over the top on the flop while you have some fold equity against the draws.

I didn't think we wanted fold equity against a draw. I guess the only time we would want that is if it's a bigger mistake for opp to fold a draw than to call. Haven't looked closely enough at the hand to make a decision either way.

There's already $14 in the pot with villain only having $5 behind. Most of his draws look to be gutshot, imo. The margin for calling with a gutshot is thin. If he has OESD, he's got way more equity than he needs to call. We'd like the bigger draws to think they're WB, and maybe fold here. There's very little fold equity here for any villain with two working brain cells, but we'd like to use whatever leverage we have while it exists.
03-14-2008, 11:03 AM
deacon_bluez

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan

side note: limp in ace suited rag on the button is much better than lower suited cards IMO. i love it sometimes.

Why?
03-14-2008, 12:05 PM
pokerfan

i often stacked terrible lower flush man, got away from low kicker scenario and bluffed out standard weak players with some good outs in position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deacon_bluez

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan

side note: limp in ace suited rag on the button is much better than lower suited cards IMO. i love it sometimes.

Why?
03-14-2008, 12:57 PM
pgil

I agree that shoving over the flop minraise is the best play, but not because we have any leverage or fold equity. It's the best play because this is what we wanted when we 3-bet a 1/2 stack pf. The hand pretty well plays itself once the flop bet is made.

I guess in this scenario, if villain does fold a draw, that is probably better for us, because he would be giving up a fair bit of equity.