Let's play find the fold!

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03-14-2008, 01:45 PM
dev

Let's play find the fold!

I spent this whole hand trying to find a fold, but I never did. Can you?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($28.15)
SB ($60.30)
BB ($25.25)
UTG ($19.20)
UTG+1 ($4.95)
Hero ($24.90)
MP2 ($24.90)
CO ($6.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.75, Button raises to $2.5, 2 folds, UTG calls $2.25, Hero calls $1.75, CO calls $1.75.

Flop: ($10.35) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, CO raises to $4.3, Button calls $4.30, UTG calls $3.55, Hero calls $3.55.

Turn: ($27.55) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players)
UTG bets $6.75, Hero calls $6.75, Button raises to $21.35, UTG calls $5.65 (All-In), Hero calls $11.35 (All-In).

River: ($76.15) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $79.40
03-14-2008, 02:01 PM
Warpe

fold preflop. fold flop.

look up 'reverse implied odds'
03-14-2008, 02:02 PM
d0zer

If you're gunna raise PF, it's gunna have to be bigger than .75 with a limper behind. The 'standard' there would be 1.25

I fold to the 3-bet preflop. Too expensive to hunt for a flush/2pr and you're not making anything significant from TPNK.

On the flop, I don't think you're good here very often in a 4-way where nobody's folding. Someone's got a better kicker than a 4 or has TT. I know it's hard to lay down the trips here, but that's the dodgy situation you got yourself into by calling the 3-bet preflop.
03-14-2008, 02:09 PM
dev

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

fold preflop. fold flop.

look up 'reverse implied odds'

reverse implied odds on what? I'm not losing to a better flush, possibly to a better two pair, but with all these callers I'm not going broke with just a pair of aces.
03-14-2008, 02:13 PM
Warpe

:roll:
03-14-2008, 02:18 PM
dev

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

If you're gunna raise PF, it's gunna have to be bigger than .75 with a limper behind. The 'standard' there would be 1.25

Point taken, I was going 3bb+limpers at the time, don't know why this one's .75.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

I fold to the 3-bet preflop. Too expensive to hunt for a flush/2pr and you're not making anything significant from TPNK.

Too expensive? The CO is calling this 90+% of the time. I'm getting better than 4:1. The implied odds are really good here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

On the flop, I don't think you're good here very often in a 4-way where nobody's folding. Someone's got a better kicker than a 4 or has TT. I know it's hard to lay down the trips here, but that's the dodgy situation you got yourself into by calling the 3-bet preflop.

Now I'm getting better than 6.5:1 on a drawing board with a side pot. JJ-KK is still involved and if draws are in these guys' ranges than the case ace is a small %.
03-14-2008, 02:24 PM
d0zer

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

with all these callers I'm not going broke with just a pair of aces.

You basically did on this hand.

top pair and top trips really aren't that different in that they both often come down to kicker wars or are up against a set/boat. What hands do you hope to beat on the flop here? Would JJ-KK still be in there? KT?

The only hands you beat on the flop are ones that only the biggest donk station in the world would continue with. Even if all the other villains fit that image, the odds of at least ONE of them having A9+ are just too good...

Definitely reverse implied odds. Axs has great implied odds when you see a flop for cheap & hit the nut flush draw. Which only happens roughly 10% of the time.
03-14-2008, 03:05 PM
dev

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

with all these callers I'm not going broke with just a pair of aces.

You basically did on this hand.

top pair and top trips really aren't that different in that they both often come down to kicker wars or are up against a set/boat. What hands do you hope to beat on the flop here? Would JJ-KK still be in there? KT?

Except that the chances of my ace being dominated just went down by 2/3. It's a significantly different situation than an AT5 flop, where I check/fold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

The only hands you beat on the flop are ones that only the biggest donk station in the world would continue with. Even if all the other villains fit that image, the odds of at least ONE of them having A9+ are just too good...

A 4 is still probably good, and that alone is 8:1, coupled with the chance that I'm good already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

Definitely reverse implied odds. Axs has great implied odds when you see a flop for cheap & hit the nut flush draw. Which only happens roughly 10% of the time.

You're discounting 2p or trip 4s.
03-14-2008, 03:25 PM
d0zer

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

A 4 is still probably good, and that alone is 8:1, coupled with the chance that I'm good already.

You're discounting 2p or trip 4s.

trips & 2pr gives you another ~3.5% yes, but I still think this is bad preflop.

I just know that I've been stacked enough times holding high trips-crap kicker in a raised multi-way that I just don't play them anymore...

Besides, if you thought that you were good on the flop, you should really have raised big to kill anyone's drawing odds, but with a hand like A4 on that board in a 3-bet 4-way it's hard to be that confident that you're good.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that BU had KK/AK, and UTG had you either outkickered, or had a good draw? Nice river :)
03-14-2008, 04:12 PM
dev

I honestly did try to find a fold during this hand.

For the sake of the discussion I took the opposing view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that BU had KK/AK, and UTG had you either outkickered, or had a good draw? Nice river :)

It's worse than you think, I actually scooped this one.
opposing hands:
BU: KK
KTs
QJo

After the QQ discussion, etc. I have been working out it my head exactly how much respect to give these guys. I think this one goes either way.
03-14-2008, 04:14 PM
Fnord

Re: Let's play find the fold!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

Flop: ($10.35) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, CO raises to $4.3, Button calls $4.30

You're almost never good at EXACTLY this point in the hand.
03-14-2008, 04:25 PM
dev

Re: Let's play find the fold!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

Flop: ($10.35) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, CO raises to $4.3, Button calls $4.30

You're almost never good at EXACTLY this point in the hand.

If he can call with TT+,AK,AQ we beat his range, and that's assuming he never raises despite the draws and the size of the pot.
03-14-2008, 04:30 PM
sweetlemon69

Re: Let's play find the fold!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

Flop: ($10.35) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, CO raises to $4.3, Button calls $4.30

You're almost never good at EXACTLY this point in the hand.

At first, my eyes were drawn to the huge sized font, and I laughed hard. But it was this that made me see the fold / point in which I wasn't safe. Comical and yet to the point, love it :D
03-14-2008, 04:34 PM
Fnord

Re: Let's play find the fold!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dev

If he can call with TT+,AK,AQ we beat his range, and that's assuming he never raises despite the draws and the size of the pot.

You also need to consider the odds one of the other 2 hands has us smoked. The union of all 3 other hands that have shown interest here should send a pretty clear signal we got coolered.
03-14-2008, 04:40 PM
d0zer

Re: Let's play find the fold!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

You also need to consider the odds one of the other 2 hands has us smoked. The union of all 3 other hands that have shown interest here should send a pretty clear signal we got coolered.

How d'u feel about the 3-bet call PF? I like it a whole lot better if hero is last to call, but with the CO left to act it seems a little dodgy.
03-14-2008, 04:44 PM
Fnord

Re: Let's play find the fold!

Quote:

Originally Posted by d0zer

How d'u feel about the 3-bet call PF? I like it a whole lot better if hero is last to call, but with the CO left to act it seems a little dodgy.

Yeah, fair chance CO just sticks the rest in.
03-14-2008, 05:26 PM
kmind

wtf pre and flop
03-14-2008, 05:33 PM
pokerfan

this hand sucks a lot, not even worth talking IMO. :wink:
03-14-2008, 06:56 PM
dev

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan

this hand sucks a lot, not even worth talking IMO. :wink:

*devr cries, recites robb's posts into mirror*
03-14-2008, 08:07 PM
jyms

This hand should not have cost you a penny. I would have had Autofold clicked and moved to my other tables.
03-14-2008, 08:30 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

This hand should not have cost you a penny. I would have had Autofold clicked and moved to my other tables.

Results Oriented Thinking!
03-14-2008, 10:10 PM
dev

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

This hand should not have cost you a penny. I would have had Autofold clicked and moved to my other tables.

Results Oriented Thinking!

besides, it didn't cost me a penny.