Super-Tight Mechanical System

Whilst I was still technically beating 10NL, I didn't think I was doing well enough, so I changed things up pretty drastically. I never wanted to live at 10NL, I wanted to get to at least 100NL one day.

Instead of playing my normal full-stack tagg game, I'm trying out a short-stack all-in or fold strategy. JJ+/AK all-in, anything else, and I check/fold. If I double up, I get off the table. At the moment I'm playing with 25 BB in front of me. The advantages of this strategy are that I can't be outplayed, and my opponents have no implied odds.

How do you feel about this as a strategy? Obviously I could make a lot more by playing good normal poker, but it seems I'm not really capable of that at the moment for one reason or another, so I'm just going to try this out for a bit.

What about my hand range here? I've heard some people say they can go as far 99+/AJ+ and still make money with every hand doing this.

What do you think optimal stack size would be? I want to be making enough per double-up, but not have so much in front of me that people will have tight ranges.

you should try doing the same thing with full stack imo =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

What do you think optimal stack size would be?

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100bbs

your opponets suck all buying short is doing is limiting your edge and limiting your growth.

As far as I'm aware, there's no way to avoid variance.

Also at 10NL your opponents are hugely exploitable on every street, so you are actually losing money by cutting streets out of your play.

please dont

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

your opponets suck all buying short is doing is limiting your edge and limiting your growth.

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This is the main problem with short stacking imo. Unless you plan on short stacking for ever, i think u need to learn how to play 100BB deep. Its important that you learn how to play all streets now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

please dont

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Great.

If you want the answer, grind 10k hands 100bbs deep and put your opponents on ranges on every street.

How do you feel playing this way is going to help you "beat 100NL one day"?

Short sightedness is rampant in poker, does your own idea of doing this not show you how bad every wanna be poker player thinks? You want to learn to drive in the Indy 500, so your going to start drag racing skateboards down the alleyway? Or maybe you want to be a great chef so you start reading the directions on the pillsbury dough can?

Just because it's the same thing, your not learning the same things? Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. If you want to learn how to play poker, play poker and stop trying to win a few pots.

dude seriously, grow a pair and play poker
not whatever nonsense you are trying


also, variance is inherent in everything where randomness is involved

isnt this a similar strat as aokronglys?

I think you're all missing the point somewhat. I know that playing decent, situation specific poker is better. (Notice I refrain from saying full-stacked poker, because I believe that playing a short-stacked game - one that is more flexible, and less mechanical than I describe above - can also be valid, if that's what a situation dictates. Greenstein, Fahar, etc). What I'm doing here is a technical exercise. It's been tried before, with some profitability, though no one denies playing "normal" poker well is more profitable still. It's just an experiment for it's own sake. Well, maybe not completely for it's own sake - it's certainly going screw up everyones PT databases, it's nice to have a rest from my normal game, and if it works I can employ my kid as a poker bot without ever having to teach him the rules >;-).

Though I do appreciate the responses, "Don't do the experiment" is perhaps not the most productive answer to "What's the best way to do this experiment?"

Apparently this is what Ferguson did to turn his dollar into 20k. I'm just trying my own spin as a mental exercise, and not because I think it's super poker.

Bode, and Swift: I don't think that's true. Peoples ranges are tiny for a flat call of 100 BB. So small that I think the above range is break-even at best.

Ash256: I've been grinding with the maximum buyin, and putting my opponents on ranges on every street for 200kish Hands. I want to take a break, and perform an experiment just for fun.

Pelion: I don't really. This isn't my regular game. This isn't how I've been playing so far, and it won't be how I play afterwards. I just want to see if it works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

I'm just trying my own spin as a mental exercise,

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It sounds like the complete opposite to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

I've been grinding with the maximum buyin, and putting my opponents on ranges on every street for 200kish Hands.

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Really? At 10nl? That sounds like a serious problem, and I don't think thoughtless robot poker is the answer. Just keep studying, talk to people, post hands, etc.

Might work, might not, but don't you think you've got something better to do than staring at a screen clicking one of two buttons based on the cards u have without your game actually progressing?

If you want to get anywhere (100NL to start) you'd be better off actually trying to improve your game rather than just blind shove/folding.

So listen to em, be a man, buyin for a full stack and with half a brain and a little dedication you can easily beat 10NL.



...you've got something better to do than staring at a screen clicking one of two buttons... -- i am starting to sound like my gf

i feel bad for you

I don't really know what you mean when you say "sounds like the opposite to me". What is the opposite of what?

I'll just say this again - I'm not doing this because I think it yields the highest EV. I'm doing this because I want to see how well it works. It's an experiment.

My ordinary game is a little below par, yes, and I'm sure I have leaks, true, but it's basically okay. What I'm trying is something completely different; it's not what I think is a fix for a broken game or anything like that. I beat 10NL quite comfortably; you don't need to tell me that this isn't the best way to play hold em - I know. What I want to discuss is the best way to go about this idea, not whether or not this is this idea is any good.

My 200K hands are not all at 10NL. It's not a problem, I just don't need to storm up the levels. I cash out a lot of my winnings.

As for why I should want to try such a thing, well, I dunno really... because I have plenty of money and free time I guess. Each to their own. It would be interesting to see how much above this methods win rate my normal win rate is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce123

i feel bad for you

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why feel bad for somebody who's planning on implementing a losing shortstack strategy while garnering hatred from the poker community?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

I don't really know what you mean when you say "sounds like the opposite to me". What is the opposite of what?

I'll just say this again - I'm not doing this because I think it yields the highest EV. I'm doing this because I want to see how well it works. It's an experiment.

My ordinary game is a little below par, yes, and I'm sure I have leaks, true, but it's basically okay. What I'm trying is something completely different; it's not what I think is a fix for a broken game or anything like that. I beat 10NL quite comfortably; you don't need to tell me that this isn't the best way to play hold em - I know. What I want to discuss is the best way to go about this idea, not whether or not this is this idea is any good.

My 200K hands are not all at 10NL. It's not a problem, I just don't need to storm up the levels. I cash out a lot of my winnings.

As for why I should want to try such a thing, well, I dunno really... because I have plenty of money and free time I guess. Each to their own. It would be interesting to see how much above this methods win rate my normal win rate is.

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dude
it's not like we're gonna give you advice on how to profitably shortstack. we hate shortstacks. you may just be looking to experiment, but if it goes good enough you'll be provoked to take it further. nobody wants that except for those riding the choo choo wagon

Exaclty. It's like saying: "hey guys i am gonna play Blackjack for a while" and then get ticked off cause we say it's a dumb idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

dude
it's not like we're gonna give you advice on how to profitably shortstack. we hate shortstacks. you may just be looking to experiment, but if it goes good enough you'll be provoked to take it further. nobody wants that except for those riding the choo choo wagon

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FYP


but to each his own.
do what you want DJPunkPauds, but I too feel bad for you

1. play position
2. fold pair to reraise
3. Pot bet everystreet but shove river with 2p+ TP"good"K
4. See cheap flops and possible multiway with SC/(PP u can get HU)
5. Play somewhat tight, can vary from VPIP14-24
6. Just crush when you hit. they will call u with tpwk
7. 2. reraise means they beat aces. (unless it doesnt make sense and they are abv. bluffing)
8. Buyin for 100bb
9. Shove on shortstacks with decent hands
10. dont bluff to often
11. Put people on ranges before flop, on flop, on turn and river.
12. Beat the crap out of them.
13. Sloughter (if i spell correct)
14. Sloughter some more
15. ?

yeah youre not gonna win with this strat btw, its not even positionally adjusted. /strategy though, this is just dumb

THE BLINDS ARE GONNA EAT YOU ALIVE. Have a good day.

Stop trying to run circles around yourself.


- If you have enough money, move up to 25NL.
- If you don't have enough money, beat the game until you're able to move up to 25NL.

Continue, profit, feel good when you have a 4 figure br.

You will learn very little doing your shortstacking 10NL lolstrategy and it'll be a waste of your time. If you're getting bored of playing 10NL then move up duh! Set yourself a target of $1k by 2009 or something.



Also, don't feel it necessary to automatically defend yourself against anything anyone says - if you've come to the conclusion that this strat sucks (and we hope you do) no-one's gonna be like LOL POZZED or anything.

"Say I wanted to make a car out of play-dough, what would be the best way to go about that?"
"You wouldn't want to do that. Better to use metal."
"Yes, that's so self-evident that it doesn't warrant mentioning, but say I wanted to anyway, what would be the best way to do it?"
"But metal and plastic are better for making cars!"
"Yeah, I know, but what if?"
"You wouldn't want to do that."
"*sighs and writes dialogue to parody the situation*"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

"Say I wanted to make a car out of play-dough, what would be the best way to go about that?"
"You wouldn't want to do that. Better to use metal."
"Yes, that's so self-evident that it doesn't warrant mentioning, but say I wanted to anyway, what would be the best way to do it?"
"But metal and plastic are better for making cars!"
"Yeah, I know, but what if?"
"You wouldn't want to do that. Besides, a play-dough car killed my dog so I wouldn't wanna help anybody make one since I hate them anyways."

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

"Say I wanted to make a car out of play-dough, what would be the best way to go about that?"
"You wouldn't want to do that. Better to use metal."
"Yes, that's so self-evident that it doesn't warrant mentioning, but say I wanted to anyway, what would be the best way to do it?"
"But metal and plastic are better for making cars!"
"Yeah, I know, but what if?"
"You wouldn't want to do that."
"*sighs and writes dialogue to parody the situation*"

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your strategy is terrible and may work at 10nl if you "game select" but would never work at a higher level. i understand you want to take this on as an experiment but it seems like you could find a more enjoyable experiment to do. this isnt even like high school earth science lab fun....this is like watching paint dry, except you have to click buttons the whole time instead of just chilling.
does this help?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

"Say I wanted to make a car out of play-dough, what would be the best way to go about that?"
"You wouldn't want to do that. Better to use metal."
"Yes, that's so self-evident that it doesn't warrant mentioning, but say I wanted to anyway, what would be the best way to do it?"
"But metal and plastic are better for making cars!"
"Yeah, I know, but what if?"
"You wouldn't want to do that. Besides, a play-dough car killed my dog so I wouldn't wanna help anybody make one since I hate them anyways, so I decided not to bother with this thread."

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Please, don't anybody misunderstand, I'm not pissed off or defensive so much as I'm bemused by how so many people decided to answer a question that wasn't asked.

Everyone here builds real cars. We like real cars. They take us where we need to go.

Nobody here builds play-dough cars. We hate play-dough cars. They get terrible crash test ratings, and we highly advise against driving them. Please don't ask us how to build them (unless you intend to hit wufwugy's dog. If that's the case, I know a guy you can call).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

Please, don't anybody misunderstand, I'm not pissed off or defensive so much as I'm bemused by how so many people decided to answer a question that wasn't asked

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Really????????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

Whilst I was still technically beating 10NL, I didn't think I was doing well enough, so I changed things up pretty drastically. I never wanted to live at 10NL, I wanted to get to at least 100NL one day.

Instead of playing my normal full-stack tagg game, I'm trying out a short-stack all-in or fold strategy. JJ+/AK all-in, anything else, and I check/fold. If I double up, I get off the table. At the moment I'm playing with 25 BB in front of me. The advantages of this strategy are that I can't be outplayed, and my opponents have no implied odds.

How do you feel about this as a strategy? Obviously I could make a lot more by playing good normal poker, but it seems I'm not really capable of that at the moment for one reason or another, so I'm just going to try this out for a bit.

What about my hand range here? I've heard some people say they can go as far 99+/AJ+ and still make money with every hand doing this.

What do you think optimal stack size would be? I want to be making enough per double-up, but not have so much in front of me that people will have tight ranges.

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Sigh. If I'd only included the bits that you've bolded, then yes, you'd have a point. But I didn't, did I. Could I just knock of the 're' from your "Really????" and claim you were talking about some sort of treaty?

:shock:

One day I'll just create my own forum for shorting.

OP, forgot your name, but there are plenty of us who shortstack with higher winrates than most people fullstack. As well as higher hourly rates. Dont listen to the people who say omg you have to play fullstacks or you suck. Most of deep stack poker is just a game of whose dick is bigger anyway.

Shortstacking can be highly profitable.

That said, I played with 20BB for 50k hands or so and did no better then break even. I did some math, worked some stuff out, switched to 40bb, and am now a solid 200nl winner dabbling in 400nl as i get ready to switch.

The goal of poker is to win money. Shortstacking is a way to win money when done effectively, and its just as important a skill to learn as any other.

Your super-tight mechanical system is flawed in that it is too easy to exploit. Think of what a smart player would do when he figures out your strategy. It would be pretty easy to bluff you, and would be really easy to dodge you when you have a hand.

Instead, try buying in for $4 and playing your normal poker game. See how it works for you. This will essentially remove the river and a lot of turns from your game. I suspect you will become more profitable. Most people do.

Thanks euphoricism, that's pretty useful, because after this post my next question was going to be about beginner short stack strategy. How does shorting effect your starting hand range? At the moment, with 100BB, I'm able to play SCs, gappers, and set-mine. Does all that go out of the window, with the reduced implied odds? Does shorting favour full-ring, or 6-max? Is the importance of position effected by having less chips? There does seem to be fervent prejudice against shorting in the online poker community - know anywhere I can get some entry level info on playing a smaller stack? My deep stack game is fairly decent for my level, where can I go to learn how to adjust?

I do differentiate my above strategy from normal shorting. The above is what you would do if you were a really stupid robot. I've heard many people say this basic strategy does work (although they universally acknowledge that good normal poker is better still). Bob Rose:

"I worked it out with millions of simulations on the computer and then went and did it for a seven month period, five days a week, and it came out at $28.64 an hour. Here’s how it works. You play the low blind games. I would say the best ones to play are the $2/$5 games. In a low blind game, a bunch of chips is not strength, it’s vulnerability – unless you’re one of the best players around (and if you’re one of the best players around you wouldn’t be playing the $2/$5 games!). Too many people want to look at a flop and anybody playing the $2/$5 has only a certain level of ability. That means that their big chip stack in front of them, if they stay there long enough, is gonna get sucked out from under them.

What is the only move a pro would make if he was on a short stack? He would go all-in if he had A-A, K-K, Q-Q or A-K. So I’ve simplified the game down to one move, because that is the move the best pro in the world would make.

So, you buy in for $140 – let everyone else have the big stacks. You sit there and wait for one of those four hands. If you’ve got a maniac to your left, you limp in and let him raise it and go all-in when it comes back to you. You’re going to see one of those combos on average once in about 43 or 44 hands. So, say you’ve blinded down to about $120. If no one calls you when you go all in, you’ll have probably picked up about forty dollars. So now you’re at $160. Then you’ll blind down another $20 or so (your original buy-in), before you get a shot at it again. If someone does call you the first time, and you win, you’re at about $240 and you’re $100 ahead, so you cash out and put your name back on the list, or walk across the street to another casino and do the same thing.

It’s just money management. You cash out and buy back in for $140 and do the same thing again. It’s foolproof. It’s chump bait, because if you’re down to $140 and there are all these big stacks, and there’s already $60 in the pot, someone’s going to call you with a KJ suited or whatever.

Chris “Jesus” Ferguson – who’s a good friend of mine – took a dollar and turned it into $20,000 over a five-month period using my system – just for a lark in his spare time. Isn’t that funny? They’re a little tighter online than they are in Vegas, so what you want to do is play four screens at the same time, each with sixty dollars. Doing that will actually make you more money. That comes to $37 per hour and some change."

The problem with Roses system is that online isnt just a *little* tighter its a *shit ton* tighter. Im not going to say it doesnt work, I've never done it. But I'm certainly skeptical. In the online world everyone will figure out what youre doing really really quick.

donkeydevestation.com has a 20bb guide. Again, I use 40bb..

1) How does shorting effect your starting hand range.
A) It doesnt. I adapt my hand to my opponent. Basically I play the same way everyone else does, maybe a little tighter OOP. Setcamping certainly goes out the window, you cant have a $10 stack and call a $2 raise hoping to hit a set, that would be a major leak.

Basically, dont call with anything. If you dont feel comfortable raising, fold it. With that said, I threebet a lot because I know its hard to play against my threebet -- you either have to shove or fold.

2) Does shorting favor full ring or 6m
A) Ive never shorted FR. From what I've read, its not particularly profitable due to the fact that the players tend to be obscenely tight.

3) Is the importance of position effected by having less chips
A) YES YES YES. Position is *everything* to a shortstack. Getting 3bet because youre OOP and having to fold is *DEVESTATING* to a shorty.

super tight mechanical short stacking strategy-kinda sounds like a recipe for a bot to me.

Yup, could be used for a bot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pgil

super tight mechanical short stacking strategy-kinda sounds like a recipe for a bot to me.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

Yup, could be used for a bot.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

Well, maybe not completely for it's own sake - it's certainly going screw up everyones PT databases, it's nice to have a rest from my normal game, and if it works I can employ my kid as a poker bot without ever having to teach him the rules >;-).

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/thread

Anyways, this might be something that interests you:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=121624

so i ran your method at 25nl for about an hour 16 tabling

and i think you have discovered ...





the biggest way to lose money on the internet.





You pass up way too many +EV opportunities like blind stealing, whever you DO play, EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT YOU HAVE. Its basically a recipe for busto. Do not recommend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphoricism

so i ran your method at 25nl for about an hour 16 tabling

and i think you have discovered ...





the biggest way to lose money on the internet.





You pass up way too many +EV opportunities like blind stealing, whever you DO play, EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT YOU HAVE. Its basically a recipe for busto. Do not recommend.

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LD MOTHERFUCKING O

"I've had enough of work, it sucks and bores me.. Suppose I wanted to buy all my goods using coal and burn $10 bills to keep myself warm, what would be the best way to do that?"

"That's a fucking stupid idea"

"Yes, but, that's not what I asked. What I asked was what would be the best way to burn $10 bills to keep myself warm and buy all my goods using coal"

"I'm your financial advisor. The question you've asked is stupid and warrants no other discussion than that you shouldn't do it."

"Yes, but, that's not what I asked. What I asked was what would be the best way to burn $10 bills to keep myself warm and buy all my goods using coal"

"I'm aware of that. It's still a bad idea."


...


...


"I'm cold and hungry"

still a bad idea!!