This could be standard

Villain is 19/12 over smallish sample, and might be a regular.
His timing for his raises was quick but not insta.
I have an aggro image running in between tag and lag stats. I have not been caught bluffing though.

This board is so wet that I should stack off here right?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($294)
MP ($98.60)
Button ($197)
SB ($51)
BB ($200)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
Hero raises to $8, 3 folds, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($17) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $12, BB raises to $34, Hero raises to $90, BB raises to $192, Hero calls $102.

Turn: ($401) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)

River: ($401) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $401

very standard imo

its not so much that you wanna felt because the board is wet but because you beat a ton of overpairs (not to mention other shit) that raise or felt

you'll get shown a set here sometimes but you have to get it in.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

its not so much that you wanna felt because the board is wet but because you beat a ton of overpairs (not to mention other shit) that raise or felt

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i really doubt anything worse than like 8h9h is felting here. i think this is a set like 90% of the time. i mean the guy isnt a total fish. his stats kind of tell me that he is a bit of a station pre, probably will call with any pair from any position, possibly some sc's.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

its not so much that you wanna felt because the board is wet but because you beat a ton of overpairs (not to mention other shit) that raise or felt

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I really like how this made me look at the hand completely differently.

i fistpump when i get it in. I don't fold drawy flops when i'm only losing to 4 hands.

I figured this to be the case. I just want to check that I'm not getting complacent every once in a while.

I definitely shipped it in and he had the nut flush draw and my hand held for a change.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

its not so much that you wanna felt because the board is wet but because you beat a ton of overpairs (not to mention other shit) that raise or felt

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If the board is something like Td5h9h we're more inclined to call flop and only get it on a safe turn?
What's the plan on a Jd or 2h? call a bet, or check behind when checked to?

Don't be results oriented. 32%, that's your equity here (after villain shoves). Once you 3-bet the flop you're commited (so don't).

Board: 7d 2h 6h

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.647% 67.65% 00.00% 20761 0.00 { 77-66, 22, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, KhQh, Kh7h, QhJh, Th9h, 9h8h, 8h7h, 76s, 76o }
Hand 1: 32.353% 32.35% 00.00% 9929 0.00 { KcKs }

I'm not sure about that range P4's....villain called an UTG raise from the BB. I would take Ah9h- out of it and 76o, but I see that actually means our equity goes down a bit.

It's also hard to tell if villain will call with any SC from that position ever, but of course could be.
Is there any change he does this with like 8d9d and the sort?

Also I think 88-QQ are definately possible....and TT-QQ raising flop even very likely. Putting TT-QQ or even 88-QQ in his range really changes things around (wufwugy was spot on on that).


Or maybe you are telling the same thing, namely that 3-betting the flop folds out all/most overpairs that we beat and therefor we should call?

Are we leading turn after calling flop?

Also...will 3-betting flop be best if hero raised on the BTN instead of UTG?

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Originally Posted by minSim

Also I think 88-QQ are definately possible....and TT-QQ raising flop even very likely. Putting TT-QQ or even 88-QQ in his range really changes things around (wufwugy was spot on on that).

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I wonder if those who think his range includes 88-QQ are mentally adjusting to the fact that the pot is only 2-bet preflop.

We are talking about a TAG, possibly regular. A decent TAG is virtually always 3-betting JJ/QQ oop preflop (against loose TAG) and almost never going broke with 88-TT overpair in 2-bet pots.

I really hope that none of you guys are felting crappy overpairs in 2-bet pots like this? It's just horrible. Even QQ is an easy fold here to the 3-bet but you should never have QQ here.

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Originally Posted by minSim

Are we leading turn after calling flop?

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Villain will almost always lead with strong made hands on the turn so I would be very inclined to lead out if he doesn't. It has to be check behind or b/c since we can't fold to a c/r, which is very often a draw.

(Please take my comments with a grain of salt as I have more questions than answers, and am mostly trying to get things clear for myself, and hopefully others, by asking/commenting)

I actually probably wouldn't 3-bet JJ here preflop.
Assuming meeloche plays 25/20...would you 3-bet TT?99?
Around what PFR of meeloche are you calling JJ on the BB? or are you never?

We're not sure villain knows meeloche is playing loosely TAG, as they have a small sample size. If we assume he does, we can't be sure he is good enough to know JJ/QQ should be auto 3-bets against meeloche.

Even if he knows that, then I think we have to narrow the range you gave villain a few posts back, cause I don't expect a villain as good as that having such a wide calling range OOP vs an UTG raise.

Are we folding to any reasonable bet on a heart turn?
What about an Jd or As?



I got confused somewhere and thought we would be OOP on the turn (see 'are we leading turn?'). I agree with your b/c.
Is it able give an answer to 'are we leading turn?' assuming we would be OOP? or is that a complete different situation with different ranges and maybe even a different flop play?

Gosh I find this hand interesting....

P4s, would you shove black A's here? Red A's?


I was thinking, as we don't want to get it in on this flop, with an overpair (at least KK-), in a 2 bet pot.....

......are we ever 3-betting/shoving a non paired, drawy flop, with an overpair, in a 2 bet pot?
(100bb, without a spewy image, etc)

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Originally Posted by minSim

(Please take my comments with a grain of salt as I have more questions than answers, and am mostly trying to get things clear for myself, and hopefully others, by asking/commenting)

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I don't see anything in your comments that need a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by minSim

I actually probably wouldn't 3-bet JJ here preflop.
Assuming meeloche plays 25/20...would you 3-bet TT?99?
Around what PFR of meeloche are you calling JJ on the BB? or are you never?

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Against 25/20 I would probably 3-bet/call TT and 99 50/50.

I would probably mostly call with JJ on the BB when villain PFR < 12. A very high AF also makes calling better because of improved implied set odds.

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Originally Posted by minSim

We're not sure villain knows meeloche is playing loosely TAG, as they have a small sample size. If we assume he does, we can't be sure he is good enough to know JJ/QQ should be auto 3-bets against meeloche.

Even if he knows that, then I think we have to narrow the range you gave villain a few posts back, cause I don't expect a villain as good as that having such a wide calling range OOP vs an UTG raise.

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I have a wider calling range against an utg raise than against a button raise. Does that surprise you? But you are right, suited aces worse than ATs and also 76o are probably not in his range. The equity is still the same.

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Originally Posted by minSim

Are we folding to any reasonable bet on a heart turn?
What about an Jd or As?

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Yes to fold on a heart turn. Isn't Jd a blank? As, meh, depends.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by minSim

I got confused somewhere and thought we would be OOP on the turn (see 'are we leading turn?'). I agree with your b/c.
Is it able give an answer to 'are we leading turn?' assuming we would be OOP? or is that a complete different situation with different ranges and maybe even a different flop play?

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Pretty much totally different scenario, but say we got called from the button and we cbet the flop and called a raise on this same board, then we should either b/c or c/f and I prefer c/f in most scenarios.

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Originally Posted by pocketfours

Don't be results oriented. 32%, that's your equity here (after villain shoves). Once you 3-bet the flop you're commited (so don't).

Board: 7d 2h 6h

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.647% 67.65% 00.00% 20761 0.00 { 77-66, 22, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, KhQh, Kh7h, QhJh, Th9h, 9h8h, 8h7h, 76s, 76o }
Hand 1: 32.353% 32.35% 00.00% 9929 0.00 { KcKs }

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i think this range is pretty much dead on. i cant think of a single hand he would do this with that isnt in that range.

P4s why dont you play poker for a living? Also interested to hear why you call wider vs a utg raise than vs a button raise. You think implied odds + position really outweigh having the best starting hand like 80% of the time?

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

P4s why dont you play poker for a living?

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Some say you should earn from poker as much as from your dayjob for a full year before you quit your job. That figure is currently $360k and my game is simply not there yet. I also really like my job.

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

Also interested to hear why you call wider vs a utg raise than vs a button raise. You think implied odds + position really outweigh having the best starting hand like 80% of the time?

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This was a tricky statement. The reason why I call with a wider range vs utg is simply because I 3-bet most hands vs a button raise that I would call with against utg raise. That certainly doesn't mean I defend the blinds with a wider range.

I think I need to hear a bit more about why calling the flop is better than 3 betting. His range has a ton of draws that are probably willing to stack off on the flop and not a blank turn so doesn't this put us in the position to make the least amount of money?

Meeloche, we're not very happy getting it in here against villains stack of range, it'll all be flippings or way behind scenario's.

By 3-betting flop we fold out all hands we're way ahead of, which we could get value from on later streets by calling.

We can save ourselfs money by folding certain turns.

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Originally Posted by meeloche

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

its not so much that you wanna felt because the board is wet but because you beat a ton of overpairs (not to mention other shit) that raise or felt

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I really like how this made me look at the hand completely differently.

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isnt it nice

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Originally Posted by will641

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

its not so much that you wanna felt because the board is wet but because you beat a ton of overpairs (not to mention other shit) that raise or felt

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i really doubt anything worse than like 8h9h is felting here. i think this is a set like 90% of the time. i mean the guy isnt a total fish. his stats kind of tell me that he is a bit of a station pre, probably will call with any pair from any position, possibly some sc's.

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really? im thinking he thinks his overpair with heart looks pretty good, and by the time we figure he doesnt have that we have enough in already that we gotta put it in vs the rest of his range. he can have a ton of Axhh. hes not necessarily gonna 3ball TT JJ pf always too. he could even have 53hh

folding big overpairs on low flops is typically wrong. we gotta be convinced somehow it is right to do it imo

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Originally Posted by minSim

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

its not so much that you wanna felt because the board is wet but because you beat a ton of overpairs (not to mention other shit) that raise or felt

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If the board is something like Td5h9h we're more inclined to call flop and only get it on a safe turn?
What's the plan on a Jd or 2h? call a bet, or check behind when checked to?

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i dont dislike just getting it in. if our opponents range consists of stuff like oesds and fds (QJ or Axs here) then we're almost never wrong to felt, and i see little value to calling and getting it in later. in some other games that play more complicated turns it may be better, but thats over my and most our opponents heads. i also really dont like the idea of 'getting it in on a safe turn' when we could be most correct getting it in right now. when thats the case i almost never do the 'safe turn' idea. one time i had a hand kinda like this (it was weaker actually, but villain was poorer) where once the flop hit i decided i was getting it in no matter what and even though the board was drawy i figured id get better value by 'slowplaying' to the turn, well the flush hit, he shoved, i snapped without a flush card and was right. had i thought 'get it in safe' i woulda been wrong. not to say that logic is faulty; its definitely good, but not here imo

i tend to value bet extreeeeemely light in nlhe. so i probably barrel both J and 2h. i may even look for three streets of value too. this is very good if we're not getting slowplayed. if we are getting slowplayed because we're so aggro or something then its bad. even then, i may value the turn again with plans of checking river so as to set a price to my showdown. this can create a more aggro and balanced image while keeping from paying too much for showdown as well as keeping us on the offensive so we can bluff profitable rivers (like four flush) without looking too suspicious, and we dont fold to the same river bluffs (like the four flush comes and we had checked turn then villain donks into us on river we gotta raise to get him off what may be his bluff when KK no flush may still be the best hand but still no way to call)

and i dont have much doubt in my mind that the best line here is 3bet shove. its a huge overbet, but it looks the most like a draw or weakness so we'll get looked up by more worse made hands and even draws. this is like the perfect time to do this with the nuts too imo

when we just call a lot gets scary and can scare off. like more than half the deck makes his 99 not look so good, but if we can convince him we're on Axhh he will sometimes call with 99

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

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Originally Posted by will641

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

its not so much that you wanna felt because the board is wet but because you beat a ton of overpairs (not to mention other shit) that raise or felt

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i really doubt anything worse than like 8h9h is felting here. i think this is a set like 90% of the time. i mean the guy isnt a total fish. his stats kind of tell me that he is a bit of a station pre, probably will call with any pair from any position, possibly some sc's.

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really? im thinking he thinks his overpair with heart looks pretty good, and by the time we figure he doesnt have that we have enough in already that we gotta put it in vs the rest of his range. he can have a ton of Axhh. hes not necessarily gonna 3ball TT JJ pf always too. he could even have 53hh

folding big overpairs on low flops is typically wrong. we gotta be convinced somehow it is right to do it imo

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yeah but the point is, while he could have TT/JJ, he isnt 4 bet shoving it. i think its very plausible that he has JJ/TT, i just dont think its very plausible from a 19/12 that he shoves.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

and i dont have much doubt in my mind that the best line here is 3bet shove. its a huge overbet, but it looks the most like a draw or weakness so we'll get looked up by more worse made hands and even draws. this is like the perfect time to do this with the nuts too imo

when we just call a lot gets scary and can scare off. like more than half the deck makes his 99 not look so good, but if we can convince him we're on Axhh he will sometimes call with 99

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well do you play a set this way? jamming here sucks imo. a draw never calls (from a thinking opp), and there are way more draw combo's than over pair combos.

getting advice from players that play 2/4 or higher in lower games is usually gonna be kinda sketchy. For example, at a 2/4 game, getting it in w/ tptk playing 25/20/4 in a single raised pot is super standard since in general, aggressive opponents are checkraising and raising c-bets w/ all sorts of draws and weaker top pair hands as well as middle or bottom pr + just SD's, i go as far as to do so w/ gutshots.

This dynamic doesn't occur at lower staked games which forces you to play a much more pot controlling type of game in situations like this. I certainly wouldn't call it a mistake getting it in here, but the thing is, at a lower stakes game vs a less aggressive opponent, you are going to be beat here much more often than at a mid-high stakes game.

and also i agree 100% w/ P4's assessment of cold calling stronger hands vs tight UTG raisers while keeping the range for 3betting vs the CO/BU/SB much wider, its kind of a really intuitive thing to do if u understand anything about the game...

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Originally Posted by will641

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

and i dont have much doubt in my mind that the best line here is 3bet shove. its a huge overbet, but it looks the most like a draw or weakness so we'll get looked up by more worse made hands and even draws. this is like the perfect time to do this with the nuts too imo

when we just call a lot gets scary and can scare off. like more than half the deck makes his 99 not look so good, but if we can convince him we're on Axhh he will sometimes call with 99

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well do you play a set this way? jamming here sucks imo. a draw never calls (from a thinking opp), and there are way more draw combo's than over pair combos.

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balancing your range is gonna be useless. the opponents don't understand enough about what you are doing. i dont know why we always assume our opponents are thinking at these stakes.

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

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Originally Posted by will641

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

and i dont have much doubt in my mind that the best line here is 3bet shove. its a huge overbet, but it looks the most like a draw or weakness so we'll get looked up by more worse made hands and even draws. this is like the perfect time to do this with the nuts too imo

when we just call a lot gets scary and can scare off. like more than half the deck makes his 99 not look so good, but if we can convince him we're on Axhh he will sometimes call with 99

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well do you play a set this way? jamming here sucks imo. a draw never calls (from a thinking opp), and there are way more draw combo's than over pair combos.

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balancing your range is gonna be useless. the opponents don't understand enough about what you are doing. i dont know why we always assume our opponents are thinking at these stakes.

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i think it is safe to assume that a draw from a 19/12 doesnt call this. i agree you cant assume he wont call if hes like 50/10.

i think jamming a set is also optimal. i reaaaaally hate giving cards on drawy boards when both our hands are vulnerable and my hand is probably already best. jamming and him folding a draw is actually really good for us. we dont want draws to draw correctly. jamming a set is so good because we get it in the weakest way we can while not letting the many scare cards roll out

wufwugy,

are you saying that if you are continuing with this hand, you only ever go allin? Under what circumstances would you flat call the raise, or put in a smaller 3bet? Also, what is the worst hand you value shove?

im not sure. ill take a couple different lines especially as my hand gets weaker because i simply just dont know

like marsh said, no need to balance ranges here. im not sure how weak ill get it in, but JJ and Axhh sounds reasonable, but im not sure. i'll prolly play those different tho, but shoving isnt bad imo. JJ may be a little too close, i dunno.

what i know is that folding is wrong with KK, and so we then must look at what we're against and what other cards falling will do and i think its then a shove is best. when we call we dont wanna see really any card at all because if it doesnt scare us it scares him, and it makes it harder for us to play correctly and easier for him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

like marsh said, no need to balance ranges here. im not sure how weak ill get it in, but JJ and Axhh sounds reasonable, but im not sure. i'll prolly play those different tho, but shoving isnt bad imo. JJ may be a little too close, i dunno.

what i know is that folding is wrong with KK, and so we then must look at what we're against and what other cards falling will do and i think its then a shove is best. when we call we don't wanna see really any card at all because if it doesn't scare us it scares him, and it makes it harder for us to play correctly and easier for him.

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This is exactly my thinking of the hand.

As for results he called with Axhh. I 3 bet small to try and induce a shove which ended up working nicely and my KK held.

there is merit in 3betting small looking to get him to shove a draw. probably just go for cib then, but thats actually bad because he could just call with a ton of draws

but even then he's wrong to fold Axhh if we just shove because he has really good equity vs our range and is getting odds. i doubt he thinks he has fe after we put in half our stack on a 3bet. some players will though so in some situations its way better to induce bluff than to induce call