A concept I don't understand

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05-04-2008, 06:59 AM
minSim

A concept I don't understand

Assume 100BB effective stacks, 6max NLH.

Situation 1:
Villain (MP) has A:h:K:s:, Hero (BTN) has 5:d:5:c:.
Villain raises 4x, hero raises to 12x, villain folds. Is this a good thing for hero?

Situation 2:
Villain (MP) has 5:d:5:c:, Hero (BTN) has A:h:K:s:.
Villain raises 4x, hero raises to 12x, villain folds. Is this a good thing for hero?

Situation 3:
Villain (BTN) has A:h:K:s:, Hero (BB) has 5:d:5:c:.
Villain raises 4x, hero raises to 12x, villain folds. Is this a good thing for hero?

Situation 4:
Villain (BTN) has 5:d:5:c:, Hero (BB) has A:h:K:s:.
Villain raises 4x, hero raises to 12x, villain folds. Is this a good thing for hero?
05-04-2008, 09:15 AM
pocketfours

Re: A concept I don't understand

We are never thrilled to play AK or 55 in a reraised pot, so yes, it's a good thing that villain folds.
05-04-2008, 09:22 AM
pocketfours

Villain wouldn't be making a big mistake by calling any of these, which is why we are happy if he folds. The biggest mistake for villain would be to call in situation 2, so arguably we would want him to call there, but it all depends on who is playing against who of course.
05-04-2008, 10:13 AM
EzDuzIt

yeah its a good thing unless maybe the guy is one of those guys who will fold every time he doesnt hit a set.
05-04-2008, 12:37 PM
pankfish

It's great for the hero if villain is folding AK to three bets.

Situation 2 is the only one I like getting called in. Of course folds are always great when we are three betting 5's.
05-04-2008, 01:48 PM
griffey24

I really can't see situation #3 ever happening, unless hero is the hugest mega nit ever.

Situation #1 is also pretty unlikely, though more possible than #3 I'd imagine.

I guess it depends on stakes/games, but I can't imagine folding AK to any non-nit player.
05-04-2008, 05:06 PM
minSim

How much different is it if we change the hands to A:h:J:s: vs 8:d:8:s:?
05-04-2008, 05:13 PM
IowaSkinsFan

I think the answer is it depends!
05-04-2008, 06:20 PM
pankfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

How much different is it if we change the hands to A:h:J:s: vs 8:d:8:s:?

Nothing really as far as is it good for us or not. of course A J will fold to more three bets, 88 may call more.

Really it's better for us if they are calling our three bets with small/mid pairs because they are usually mucking them on the flop. It's probably better that he calls us when we have A J than A K because it will be easier for us to get away from top pair when he does hit his set. Of course we never know what hand someone else has and you are throwing some pretty vague questions out there.
05-04-2008, 10:56 PM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

How much different is it if we change the hands to A:h:J:s: vs 8:d:8:s:?

If we're changing our AK into AJ's?

I think that changes it quite a bit. It obv depends on opponent, but there aren't many players i'd be happy 4-bet calling with AJ or something.

AJ is dominated too often.
05-05-2008, 04:54 AM
minSim

First of all, I completely agree that my 'questions' are vague.

The concept I don’t get is that small/med PP’s are coinflipping with overcards if we look at all-in equity. So I always assumed when there’s some money in the pot and we take it down with one or another, that’s fine.
But the equity is of all streets. By getting called, villain is only gonna see the flop.

So my conclusion was; if someone is calling with unpaired cards against a pair, he is making a bigger mistake than when he’s folding them, equity wise. Which to me rised the question whether we actually want a fold or a call.
Also turning things around, if we make someone fold a pair against our overcards, that’s far better for us than if he's folding his overcards to our pair.

So in a nutshell, what I am trying to figure out is what I should consider whether/when to 3-bet hands like 99-JJ and AQ.....what's my goal with it?

What more or less triggered this was a comment by P4’s in another thread, combined with some thinking about 3-betting from the blinds.
P4’s comment:
“Against a 25/20 UTG raise I would probably 3-bet/call TT and 99 50/50.
I would probably mostly call with JJ on the BB when villain PFR < 12”

The thing is, at my stakes, 3-bet ranges and even more 4-bet/shoving ranges preflop are that tight, that I can’t really 3-bet/call with 99-JJ or AK, so will usually be 3-bet/folding them.
Also, quite some people call 3-bets with overcards (like AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ) fairly often and generally play a weak fit and fold in 3-bet pots, both with overcards and small/med PP’s.

(I hope that's enough for the “it depends”)

More specific:
99-JJ:
Is taking the preflop ‘thin’ value by making villain mistakenly call my 3-bets with unpaired cards/lower pairs worth enough, when the price is that villain can play perfectly with most of his range preflop and on the flop?

How is the value compared to calling preflop and seeing a flop against a wide range I’m way ahead of, but where I am probably in the dark against on either flop or turn. (although I assume most villains do not 2/3 barrel bluff much)

What is (is there?) the big difference in 3-bet/folding JJ or 22 in the described conditions?

AQ and such:
Is it worth taking the preflop FE+flop initiative, when the price is folding out most of the hands I dominate preflop? (again compared to calling and playing against a wide range postflop)

I more or less ingnored position, initiative, postflop playability, flop shovability etc. in this. Mostly because most of my opponents aren’t check/shoving low flops with AK and such, so the game plays relatively straightforward in 3-bet pots.
I actually think having position or not could be a very important factor in considering whether to call or 3-bet, if it is please elaborate why.
05-05-2008, 08:08 AM
IowaSkinsFan

A lot of this depends on how weak and strong our opponents threebet range is and his tendencies postflop.

But position is super good, you get one more street of info.
05-05-2008, 08:37 AM
minSim

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

A lot of this depends on how weak and strong our opponents threebet range is and his tendencies postflop.

But position is super good, you get one more street of info.

We're the one 3-betting.
Our opponents 4-betting/shoving ranges are very tight, mostly QQ+.
Let's say we have 2 type of opponents:
1. tight calling range, being AQ+ (with AK), 88-JJ.
2. wide calling range, being AJ+ (with AK), KJs+, some SC's, 22-JJ.
05-05-2008, 12:40 PM
griffey24

The reason why a lot of these situations are hard to assess is that they SHOULD depend on gameflow a lot.

If I'm ramming on someone from the button to their CO opens over and over again... repeatedly and then they 4-bet me and I have 55. There could definitely be times where I shove over with pocket 5's here or something. Because his range can be tons of 4-bet bluffs and also most likely hands like AK/AQ as well.

With regards to 3-betting hands like 99-JJ and stuff. I usually try to avoid making plays where if villain comes back over the top I'm actually confused and don't know what to do. If I am 3-betting 99-JJ against any villain its because I either know that if he 4-bets me I'm folding.. or I know that if he 4-bets me I'm jamming. I don't wanna make a play that puts me into a spot where I don't know what to do.

Whatever you do, you need a plan!
05-05-2008, 02:46 PM
minSim

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

The reason why a lot of these situations are hard to assess is that they SHOULD depend on gameflow a lot.

If I'm ramming on someone from the button to their CO opens over and over again... repeatedly and then they 4-bet me and I have 55. There could definitely be times where I shove over with pocket 5's here or something. Because his range can be tons of 4-bet bluffs and also most likely hands like AK/AQ as well.

With regards to 3-betting hands like 99-JJ and stuff. I usually try to avoid making plays where if villain comes back over the top I'm actually confused and don't know what to do. If I am 3-betting 99-JJ against any villain its because I either know that if he 4-bets me I'm folding.. or I know that if he 4-bets me I'm jamming. I don't wanna make a play that puts me into a spot where I don't know what to do.

Whatever you do, you need a plan!

In the situations described, I am 3-bet/folding always.
It's not that I'm not sure what to do to a 4-bet or shove. It's that I am not sure if my 3-bet with these particular hands is the most +EV move.

Gameflow to me is just tightening or widening a players range in a certain spot. I if I am jamming on someone, I understand I'll have to open up my calling range, and 55 is a possible hand for it. But that's really not the situations I am referring to though.

Let's say a 30/17 25NL player, with a 4-bet or shoving range of QQ+, and a 3-bet calling range of either one of the two above described + the described fit or fold strategy on the flop, opens...
- Should I be 3-betting 99-JJ?
- If so, why is it better than calling?
- Why is JJ better than 22?
- Why is JJ better than 97s?
05-05-2008, 03:39 PM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Let's say a 30/17 25NL player, with a 4-bet or shoving range of QQ+, and a 3-bet calling range of either one of the two above described + the described fit or fold strategy on the flop

If you think a player is only ever 4-betting you with QQ+, and often CALLING your 3-bets OOP, you should probably widen your 3-betting range a lot. Playing in 3-bet pots IN position is very profitable, and puts villain in very difficult spots in very big pots OOP.

But once again.. "it depends". If a player is FOLDING to a lot of 3-bets, sometimes I'd rather call with hands like 99-JJ if I think they have the tendancy to spew a lot postflop, so I don't want to lose them in the hand preflop by 3-betting them.