Weak overpair OOP

I hate these spots. No stats on villain, the recent Ongame upgrade has fucked the site up and it's so hard to run PAHUD on it. He's a station for sure. He opens preflop but not excessively, if I were to guess, he's about 35/14. He can't fold post-flop. I stacked him with a turned flush when he called me down on an A high board with a mid-pair of jacks and a Kc for the redraw. He still called the river when he whiffed. I haven't really seen anything spewy yet from him but we've played maybe 30 hands at this point. Note his weak flop bet.

$0.50/$1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($100.00)
UTG 1 ($118.45)
CO ($78.25)
BTN ($100.00)
Hero ($209.15)
BB ($43.05)

Pre-flop: ($1.5, 6 players) Hero is SB :tc: :td:
UTG bets $4, UTG 1 calls $4, 2 folds, Hero calls $3.50, 1 fold

Flop: :2c: :3d: :6h: ($13, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $5, 1 fold, Hero calls $5.

Turn: :6s: ($23, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $16, Hero calls $16.

River: :8c: ($55, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $33, Hero hates TT...

Tough spot, can't say for sure. I can say for sure that this is a 3bet pre though.

3bet pre seems better than flatting by far, since you have a good but difficult hand, and you have him set up for a squeeze on top of it. As played pre, I'd consider donking into him on the flop and see how it goes. As played through the river, I'd probably fold it, but I'd kick myself for not testing him a little earlier. We don't know how spewy he is, but we do know that we all but invited him to three-barrel us (or just value bet any pocket pair he may have). So there's a good argument to call, or piss and moan after you fold.

Don't you guys think 3-betting preflop is over-repping our hand? Or do you like the idea of turning it into a sort of bluff for the value of the squeeze?

the 3bet would be for value but picking up the dead money is always good.

as played probably call. do you remember what his timing was on his bets?

I would squeeze preflop and call this river lead. I don't mind a call if villain has nittish stats from utg but squeezing can be so profitable with garbage that I have to do it with good hands to.

Against this player I think I'm pretty happy calling him down here.

I feel weird voicing my opinion, since you are a better player than me, but shouldn't we raise the flop here? 5 into 13 just looks so weak..

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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

the 3bet would be for value but picking up the dead money is always good.

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So you're calling a push?

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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

as played probably call. do you remember what his timing was on his bets?

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No timing tells, same on each street. I tried giving a false tell by acting like the six pairing made me think about doing something by waiting like 4 seconds before checking.

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Originally Posted by Juked07

I feel weird voicing my opinion, since you are a better player than me, but shouldn't we raise the flop here? 5 into 13 just looks so weak..

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Always throw in your two cents, worse case scenario is you'll learn something.

Raising the flop's not good because there's more hands that beat me calling than ones which I beat. So essentially I'd be turning this hand into a bluff.

Calling is just fine preflop in this spot. A flop check/call is the best line. The board pairing on the turn and him still betting is pretty scary. I would fold it then. The river screams value so I'd fold there too.

As long as I've wasted space on this thread, I might as well understand it more fully XD. What are we expecting the villain to have here? 45 shouldn't be opening UTG too often unless he's opening a pretty wide range. 22 and 33 beat us obviously, and higher PP. Couldn't he also have air a lot? The board misses most of his range and our perceived range--he could probably put us just on overs pretty easily? Do you play postflop differently if you're holding QQ instead?

Seems like you have to call if you played it so passively.

Fold river.

comon man

just call and enjoy your G bucks

oh shit

i misread action, thought u had initiative at some point

my bad, my above post is completely irrelevant

but you could always CRai riv as a bluff!

I think leading the flop could be good since it's not a great board for utg to cbet, given what coldcalls from utg+1 and SB usually indicate. As played I think c/c, c/c + c/f is best. And i also like flatting preflop rather than squeezing.

i see nothing wrong with c/r this flop to 15. make him define his hand. since none of you have a good analysis of what his 5 dollar bet means more information = teh nuts

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

Calling is just fine preflop in this spot. A flop check/call is the best line. The board pairing on the turn and him still betting is pretty scary. I would fold it then. The river screams value so I'd fold there too.

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Yup, for this sequence 3/4 TURN & 3/5 RIVER IP = screems boat/JJ+, so I would fold.

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Originally Posted by galapagos

I hate these spots. No stats on villain, the recent Ongame upgrade has fucked the site up and it's so hard to run PAHUD on it. He's a station for sure. He opens preflop but not excessively, if I were to guess, he's about 35/14. He can't fold post-flop. I stacked him with a turned flush when he called me down on an A high board with a mid-pair of jacks and a Kc for the redraw. He still called the river when he whiffed. I haven't really seen anything spewy yet from him but we've played maybe 30 hands at this point. Note his weak flop bet.

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I also play at Ongame and indeed yesterday evening the stats were quite funny ... changing player stats between hands ...

3bet pre is for value (Most stronger hands 4ball) and you get initiative which IMO is important with a hand like TT where you'll see lots and lots of awkward boards, spots and pots if you don't have initiative.

3betting preflop for value with intention to fold to a 4bet should only be done with hands with low implied odds-particularly AQo, AJo, KQo. It's way better to call TT preflop if you're not comfortable stacking off with it. If you're finding yourself in a lot of awkward spots, just try putting less money in the pot. Don't raise for info/to charge draws and then second-guess yourself thinking it would be a great spot for him to play back at you when your opponent puts more money in the pot. Look for spots where your opponent is likely to be 2barreling a lot (Kxxx/JxxQ type boards) to call down, and look for spots to fold where your opponent will rarely be bluffing (2barreling an Axxx board, 2barreling when the high card on flop pairs on the turn). Setting yourself up to fold Tens preflop is pretty criminal.

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

the 3bet would be for value but picking up the dead money is always good.

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So you're calling a push?

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no. his calling your 3bet range is a lot wider than his shoving over range.

3 bet pf, the guys an idiot and as played call river.

3balling pre here is def. not good. Ive even been flat calling TT here OTB vs and UTG raiser lately. At first i was going to say easy river call the way you played it but youre way behind his range here, so fold.

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Originally Posted by bode

3balling pre here is def. not good. Ive even been flat calling TT here OTB vs and UTG raiser lately. At first i was going to say easy river call the way you played it but youre way behind his range here, so fold.

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I think should depend on the stats of the player. Otherwise, I think you'll be loosing value, plus if overcards come on FLOP/TURN/RIVER you'll have a hard time if villain bets hard. Or am I missing something?

*sigh*

Against this villain I might call turn and c/f river.
My standard play is call preflop, c/c flop, c/f turn.

Whether to 3-bet preflop or call is a mystery to me....and looking at the comments lots of people do not agree on it.
Would be nice if more of the higher stakes players could comment on it.
I know p4s adviced to 3-bet an UTG raise from the BB with 99/TT about 50/50.

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

It's way better to call TT preflop if you're not comfortable stacking off with it.

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....id like to hear why

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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

....id like to hear why

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Think about his UTG opening range, then what of it is calling a squeeze, then what of it wants to get in on a flop like this with us and no 3-bet history. It's a pretty ugly spot. Then there's also the times he is going to shove on us and we really don't want to get it in with TT preflop.

I don't see anything wrong with flatting TT vs an UTG raiser for the same reasons that galapogos mentioned. When UTG plays back at us, we're praying for a flip.

Given OP's description of villain (with calling down A high and being a donk in general), and given that as played this hand is probably the top of our range always, I don't mind a river call here.

I think this hand was played fine, and river call/fold is probably pretty close given the reasonably small size of his bet.

I think you have the best hand here, he probably has 8's or something, I don't really put him on trip 6's there

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

3betting preflop for value with intention to fold to a 4bet should only be done with hands with low implied odds-particularly AQo, AJo, KQo. It's way better to call TT preflop if you're not comfortable stacking off with it. ... Setting yourself up to fold Tens preflop is pretty criminal.

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Soz but please could you explain a bit more? The way I see it, when we 3bet, he calls with his worse hands and 4bets with his better hands (though there are a few exceptions of course) which seems pretty nice.. I completely trust your opinion though, I just don't understand it - though your advocation of playing poker after the flop makes sense.

well this player probably doesnt understand position (you could tell us his attempt to steal and it would be a lot easier to get an idea how wide his utg range is).
im not saying 3 betting is better i just dont think calling is "way better".

3betting big offsuit broadways: Good because you will have nothing 2/3 of the time on the flop so you want initiative and the ability to represent a big hand. Also way more profitable to stack off with one big pair in 3bet pots vs single-raised pots. Hard to pick off bluffs with K or A high if you just call a raise preflop and miss because your opponent will frequently be 'bluffing' with a better hand. Bad because you give up a lot of equity usually when you 3bet AQ and fold to a 4bet. Also will be faced with many tough barreling decisions on turn.


3betting TT: Good because you get called by a range you are slightly ahead of whereas with broadways you are probably a coinflip or worse vs a calling range. Good because your hand is a bit more hidden in 3bet pots so you may stack 88-99 on some boards and speculative hands like 87s that flop top pair. Bad because you are well ahead of opponents opening range in single-raised pots and by 3betting you give up huge bluff-catching opportunities. Bad because you give up the opportunity to hit a set and stack a big hand to whose 4bet you would be folding to if you 3bet. Bad because for every time you stack a marginal holding in a 3bet pot you will have gotten slowplayed preflop and give up your stack to a bigger pair on a low flop. This isn't as big of an issue when you flop a pair with KQ+ as your pair won't so often be dominated. Bad because many opponents will be playing fit or fold postflop vs you after raise/calling utg whereas if you flat preflop they will be betting into you with most of their range and you're able to win bets postflop from more hands than you can with high cards. And bad because you give up almost all of your largely +EV monster>monster scenarios where you flop a set vs a low set/weakish combo draw/ random two pair. Winning with monster>monster with broadways basically entails flopping a straight>set which is extremely unlikely, as most people arent stacking off with crappy two pair or weakish combo draws on broadway flops.

good posts nut seen yo

I disagree though in this specific case. I think a 3-bet-fold may be best preflop vs this opponent because I think he calls with a very wide range and 4-bets a range that has is beat pretty bad. I think postflop situations will be awkward sometimes but it will be worth it.

That said, if u are multitabling or don't like tough spots then calling is clearly best.