Good or bad time to 4-bet?

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05-12-2008, 04:30 PM
JL

Good or bad time to 4-bet?

SB = Tagg regular 22/17 who is three-betting light in this spot very often.

BB = unknown with smallish stack so probably donkish.

If I 4bet here like I did, I am pot stuck and have to call a 5bet shove. However, if SB shoves, I am pretty sure he has me crushed because he is quite a solid multi-tabler.

My image is quite laggy right now. I have been very active at this table, stealing a lot of blinds.

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$4
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $245.50
Hero: $735.90
SB: $490.20
BB: $247.40

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with Q :spade: Q :diamond:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $14, SB raises to $48, BB calls, Hero raises to $184
05-12-2008, 04:32 PM
Deanglow

I might make it a little smaller to give him some illusion of fold equity. You have the nuts and getting it in preflop is fine
05-12-2008, 04:52 PM
EzDuzIt

pretty standard 4bet/call.
05-12-2008, 04:53 PM
meeloche

Dean's right on, I'd make it like 120-130 and get it in here.
05-12-2008, 04:54 PM
nutsinho

122/call
05-12-2008, 04:59 PM
JL

Okay 120-130 is the standard size for me when facing one opponent, but here there is a cold-caller in there now, so we still make it only 2.5x the 3-bettor's raise??
05-12-2008, 05:08 PM
EzDuzIt

we are crushing the short stack so we arent to worried about him.
05-12-2008, 05:16 PM
JL

Quote:

Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

pretty standard 4bet/call.

Yeah I agree that it is pretty standard. I am just way too results oriented and need some reassurance sometimes.

Results in white:
SB shoves, BB called, I call. SB has AA, BB has AA I spike a Q and take down one of the biggest pots of my life!
05-12-2008, 05:47 PM
dalecooper

Fucking awesome results. A+
05-12-2008, 06:24 PM
nutsinho

oh wow fwiw i didnt even notice the coldcall, sorry. i dont think it changes a ton but i would definitely still 4bet to maybe 135 and call a shove
05-12-2008, 08:20 PM
will641

okay wow, i thought this was 200nl and i couldnt figure out why everyone wanted to felt QQ for 250bb deep.
05-12-2008, 08:30 PM
Renton

EASY flat pre with position
05-12-2008, 08:52 PM
EzDuzIt

huh?
05-12-2008, 09:10 PM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

EASY flat pre with position

I like this too tbh
05-12-2008, 09:16 PM
JL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

EASY flat pre with position

I guess there is some merit to flatting pre.

But I think 4betting in my case is best because of my crazy 32/27 image at that table.
05-12-2008, 11:06 PM
thizzSantaCruz

Quote:

Originally Posted by JL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

EASY flat pre with position

I guess there is some merit to flatting pre.

But I think 4betting in my case is best because of my crazy 32/27 image at that table.

wait how is calling and taking a 3 way 3 bet pot a good thing here?
05-12-2008, 11:27 PM
Renton

saves our stack and preserves our implied odds when beat, underreps our hand when ahead.
05-13-2008, 12:17 AM
EzDuzIt

ok those are positives for calling but that doesnt prove to me it is better.
05-13-2008, 01:05 AM
Renton

its better because by shoving you get it in vs a range of QQ+ AK weighted very heavily toward KK+ while totally neutralizing your positional advantage.
05-13-2008, 01:13 AM
EzDuzIt

how will it be heavaily weighted towards KK+? QQ+ AK are always getting in. sometimes JJ or something worse gets it. And we pick up lots of money with no flop when they fold.
05-13-2008, 02:15 AM
will641

ive actually been getting into these spots a fair amount recently. i normally just flat and get it in on any non A/K high flop. i dont like 4 betting that much, because i dont think villain gets it in with JJ/TT, because he probably realizes we arent 4 betting worse, with the exception of AK, which is a flip.
05-13-2008, 03:20 AM
nutsinho

yeah i would flat if my image wasn't 'super laggy' and instead only lagtaggish
05-13-2008, 04:24 AM
minSim

Seems like the question is:

Is the 4bet FE+equity against villains preflop stack off range > the EV of calling and playing 3way ip.

With no A or K in our hand, the possibility of an A/Kxx flop is 41%. To me that seems like a lot to always fold to a cbet.
So either calling some Kxx flops, or 4betting preflop TO ME sounds like a better play.
But better players then me likely did the math on this and know for sure.

Do we assume villains at these stakes shove over with AK or JJ- more often if we 4bet smaller?
Is there really a big difference in villains shoving range compared to his shove calling range?
05-13-2008, 05:30 AM
Renton

ok

1. The reason i said "heavily weighted toward KK+ is because its very tough for the coldcaller to have AK, so if we shove and he calls he is always going to have KK+.

2. If we call, position plus the 3-way pot dynamic will ensure we never get it in bad, and that we will always get it in good.

3. Set value vs KK/AA/AK represents a lot of our ev in calling, ev that would get chucked out the window if we shoved.

4. Calling keeps TT/JJ type hands in, whereas theres a decent chance those hands will fold if we shove.
05-13-2008, 06:04 AM
Genitruc

if you're flatting pre then you'd better not be giving up on A hi flops
05-13-2008, 06:47 AM
minSim

My comments below are not I disagree with you. It's just that I see the pros and cons of both plays, but don't know how to weigh the arguments correctly (in a lot more situations btw):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

ok

1. The reason i said "heavily weighted toward KK+ is because its very tough for the coldcaller to have AK, so if we shove and he calls he is always going to have KK+.

Are we really ever afraid of the coldcaller having KK+? Imo he'll call a shove with JJ more often then he has AA here.
SB of course has KK+ in his range, as a lot of other stuff...so by shoving we do pick up lots of dead money....but you know this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

2. If we call, position plus the 3-way pot dynamic will ensure we never get it in bad, and that we will always get it in good.

Agree, besides QQ vs KK+ on lower flops of course...but agree that this is an important point for calling.
On the other hand, without really knowing SB's lighter 3bet hands, are we giving up on any A/K boards?
Because, as pointed out, that's 41% of all flops which means we should make up a lot on flops that are non-A/K...against an assumably relatively wide range of SB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

3. Set value vs KK/AA/AK represents a lot of our ev in calling, ev that would get chucked out the window if we shoved.

Agree. The way you say this tells me you are very sure that our set value is a large part of the calling EV. Can you confirm this?
Is there much difference in QQ vs 22 then?

4. Calling keeps TT/JJ type hands in, whereas theres a decent chance those hands will fold if we shove.[/quote]
Agree.
If I'm right, with us having QQ, 50% of all flops will be J or lower, so there should be a decent amount of postflop value against JJ-.

You are sure this makes up for all the times we win the 102 pot preflop by shoving? + the rare times we'll get called by AK/JJ?
05-13-2008, 11:32 AM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

if you're flatting pre then you'd better not be giving up on A hi flops

Why do you say this? Do you think JJ-TT is turning their hand into a bluff on this flop? I really think everyone's going to be pretty in line. The only guy capable of making some sort of move is going to be afraid of the short unknown behind him.
05-13-2008, 02:49 PM
Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

if you're flatting pre then you'd better not be giving up on A hi flops

Why do you say this? Do you think JJ-TT is turning their hand into a bluff on this flop? I really think everyone's going to be pretty in line. The only guy capable of making some sort of move is going to be afraid of the short unknown behind him.

sure they're gonna check when they have TT-KK

but I'm talking about a general flatting strategy with QQ in position vs a light 3-bettor (ignoring the weird dynamic of a 3-way hand like this one if we were to flat) who will fire A hi flops 100% of the time when they have air, which is why I think it's better to flat a hand like A9s in this spot than QQ if we're gonna give up on A or K hi flops.
05-13-2008, 04:12 PM
Renton

mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

if sb bets Axx/Kxx, i'm folding for sure.
05-13-2008, 05:50 PM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

if you're flatting pre then you'd better not be giving up on A hi flops

Why do you say this? Do you think JJ-TT is turning their hand into a bluff on this flop? I really think everyone's going to be pretty in line. The only guy capable of making some sort of move is going to be afraid of the short unknown behind him.

sure they're gonna check when they have TT-KK

but I'm talking about a general flatting strategy with QQ in position vs a light 3-bettor (ignoring the weird dynamic of a 3-way hand like this one if we were to flat) who will fire A hi flops 100% of the time when they have air, which is why I think it's better to flat a hand like A9s in this spot than QQ if we're gonna give up on A or K hi flops.

Yeah, I thought we were talking about this hand specifically though. I agree with you about a HU hand vs a light 3-bettor.
05-13-2008, 06:08 PM
Genitruc

i m too lazy to do the math but I'm pretty sure if we fold QQ on A or K hi flops whenever SB (who 3 bets a wide range) c bets we're getting owned pretty badly
05-14-2008, 04:28 AM
minSim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

i m too lazy to do the math but I'm pretty sure if we fold QQ on A or K hi flops whenever SB (who 3 bets a wide range) c bets we're getting owned pretty badly

This is what I am afraid of as well.
As mentioned, 41% of flops will be A/K high.

So we sure have to win some money on the flops we don't fold.

I think Renton knows more about this......
05-14-2008, 05:05 AM
tarath

just poker razor it and see that 4betting is wayyyyy better.
05-14-2008, 07:33 PM
riverturnflop

4-betting is better but I like it more if the bet size is a little smaller.

Seriously, does anyone ever bluff here?
05-14-2008, 08:30 PM
The Odds God

You need a good reason not to get stacked with QQ pf. I prefer 4betting almost always. Also, don't be worry about BB, he is a half stack fish, he can have J7 here.
05-14-2008, 08:45 PM
Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Odds God

he is a half stack fish

o wow, pretty important detail i missed

yeah, i 4-bet always.