200NL - ATs OOP

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06-03-2008, 02:15 AM
BigLRIP

200NL - ATs OOP

Villain in the hand is 38/33/2.5 over only 35 hands, so take it for what its worth. We do have some history over those 35 hands though. Folded to me in the CO, I raise AKo and he 3bets from the blinds, I flatcall. We check a Kxxr flop (two low unconnected cards) through, I flatcall his turn bet (a blank) and shove over his river bet on a board pairing river and we end up chopping. Not sure if that changes anything in regards to the hand

Thoughts on the entire hand would be appreciated. Is this more or less of a call with the board pairing on the river?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($305.20)
Button ($78.55)
Hero ($200)
BB ($216.05)
UTG ($267.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
UTG raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero calls $6, 1 fold.

Flop: ($16) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $12, Hero calls $12.

Turn: ($40) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $32, Hero calls $32.

River: ($104) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $150, Hero ..
06-03-2008, 02:58 AM
will641

he could be using mcat theorem!!! i think you have to call this river.
06-03-2008, 03:05 AM
Deanglow

I would call the river but I would never call preflop.
06-03-2008, 03:11 AM
Vi-Zer0Skill

all u beat is a bluff and you have no idea if he is even capable of doing this as a bluff.
06-03-2008, 03:17 AM
will641

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

all u beat is a bluff and you have no idea if he is even capable of doing this as a bluff.

yeah but he ties a lot, and he has a decent amount invested. i mean he could be trying to level us with AK/AQ, but i doubt it.
06-03-2008, 03:37 AM
GrindCity3

pre flop id either 3bet or fold.... calling is the worst of the 3 options. you have to check fold so many flops and even flops like this that you like are hard to play big pots with....
06-03-2008, 03:38 AM
kmind

At first glance I was with Vi-ZeroSkill. I mean it's pretty tough to think an opponent can fire air here without too much postflop reads. But he can definitely have a lot of bad Aces here in which we do tie plus there's a chance he turns like a medium PP into a bluff. How big of a chance is def. hard to judge. I guess he could have had like hearts here who had a huge draw and just whiffed. I think this is less likely because we have less of a chance of having air now on the river. I'm tired but my 2 cents.
06-03-2008, 03:54 AM
mcatdog

Re: 200NL - ATs OOP

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigLRIP

Is this more or less of a call with the board pairing on the river?

It's definitely less of a call, a big part of your equity on the turn was the fact that you were beating weaker aces which are probably in the range of a lagtard, but now you split with them.
06-03-2008, 04:45 AM
minSim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanglow

I would call the river but I would never call preflop.

You 3bet I assume?
06-03-2008, 09:46 AM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanglow

I would call the river but I would never call preflop.

You 3bet I assume?

ATs is a pretty standard fold from the SB vs an UTG raiser, no?
06-03-2008, 10:12 AM
DJJunkPauds

I fold preflop. I guess we have to fold the river, seeing as we have next to no read.
06-03-2008, 10:16 AM
griffey24

Fold preflop!

Would you call ATo against an UTG raiser?

I used to have this problem before where I was calling way too many suited aces in the blinds and stuff. Now I just ask myself if I would be calling the same hand if it wasn't suited. If the answer is no, I probably pitch it. Having it suited doesn't add _that_ much equity at all.
06-03-2008, 12:10 PM
will641

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanglow

I would call the river but I would never call preflop.

You 3bet I assume?

ATs is a pretty standard fold from the SB vs an UTG raiser, no?

yes it is, and no one 3 bets ATs for value there. you could do it as a bluff, but you dont want to be bluffing utg raisers all that often.
06-03-2008, 01:23 PM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by will641

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanglow

I would call the river but I would never call preflop.

You 3bet I assume?

ATs is a pretty standard fold from the SB vs an UTG raiser, no?

yes it is, and no one 3 bets ATs for value there. you could do it as a bluff, but you dont want to be bluffing utg raisers all that often.

if you were going to 3bet bluff here AT would be one of the last hands i would do it with.

as played i think you have to fold this river because the only thing you really beat is a busted heart draw, and imo villains bet looks like he wants you to think thats exactly what he has.
06-03-2008, 04:15 PM
BigLRIP

Preflop is a call I barely ever make, in hindsight I definately shouldn't make it vs this type of player. I don't know how good/bad it is but I was planning on check raising lots of low flops, and flops that gave me monster draws and playing flops like this one that gave me tp more passively. It's tough though cause you get into situations like these so mucking is probably best as you guys have mentioned.

Given preflop though, is check calling the whole way the only plausible line? What about if we had AQ (and no Q on board obviously)?
06-03-2008, 04:24 PM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

if you were going to 3bet bluff here AT would be one of the last hands i would do it with.

People need to stop posting stuff like this. ATs isn't that bad of a hand. You'd really rather 3bet 94o here than ATs?
06-03-2008, 04:36 PM
kmind

agreed with mcat...ATs I wouldn't 3bet bluff with too too much but it's not a horrible hand to do it with.
06-03-2008, 05:31 PM
Alexos

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

if you were going to 3bet bluff here AT would be one of the last hands i would do it with.

People need to stop posting stuff like this. ATs isn't that bad of a hand. You'd really rather 3bet 94o here than ATs?

we're gonna have that polarized vs balanced range discussion again :p
06-03-2008, 05:38 PM
mcatdog

This isn't even about merging vs. polarizing. That discussion would be about whether we'd rather 3-bet ATs or 65s here, and that depends on what hands he's just calling our 3-bet with. But to say ATs is one of the worst hands to 3-bet is just wrong. Even if he has a tight 3-bet calling range, ATs still outflops him more often than most junk hands like 94o.
06-03-2008, 05:44 PM
will641

what you say is true mcat. however, it still doesnt change the fact that 3betting an utg raiser oop with AT isnt a good idea. 3 betting 94o is obv worse. but do you think that if you are the type of player that cant get away from hands, that the latter is better? because AT will get you into tough spots, whereas 94o will just be a easy to fold unless you gin the flop.
06-03-2008, 05:54 PM
mixchange

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

if you were going to 3bet bluff here AT would be one of the last hands i would do it with.

People need to stop posting stuff like this. ATs isn't that bad of a hand. You'd really rather 3bet 94o here than ATs?

i think poster was just too general with "one of the last hands". But there are worse hands that have more value 3b imo like j10s. At least for me that is, cuz I hate getting in sticky kicker situations
06-03-2008, 08:09 PM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

if you were going to 3bet bluff here AT would be one of the last hands i would do it with.

People need to stop posting stuff like this. ATs isn't that bad of a hand. You'd really rather 3bet 94o here than ATs?

i think poster was just too general with "one of the last hands". But there are worse hands that have more value 3b imo like j10s. At least for me that is, cuz I hate getting in sticky kicker situations

exactly. i never said id rather 3bet 94o here. what im saying is id rather 3bet 67s-JTs, stuff im not dominated with if called and i can fold easily if i dont flop big.
06-03-2008, 09:53 PM
Galapogos

BigLRIP, you played your previous hand with him poorly (4-bet AK preflop against this guy!!) So based on the way that hand was played, if he's decent, he probably views you as weak/passive and trappy. You can't call this river for sure. I would fold turn. And before that I fold preflop. Yeah he raises a lot preflop, but this hand gets played post-flop. And unless you know much about his game post-flop it's too early to play ATs OOP against his UTG range.
06-04-2008, 04:30 AM
minSim

I read villain stats were 38/33/2.5, but I missed it was over such a small sample size.

Against standard TAG UTG opening I agree ATs is a standard fold.

If villain is really playing 38/33/2.5 I'm not sure. I happen to think it's playable one way or another. With Deanglow saying he's never calling, I was wondering if he's ever 3betting it vs a LAG UTG opening on a 5 handed table.

Also the discussion about wether ATs a a good or bad 3bet hand in general is interesting. I know there's at least a lot more points to consider than domination and outflopping when comparing it with JTs or 94o, like position (free cards), showdown value, less combinations in villains range, etc. But I haven't fully figured it out myself yet, it will probably take a few days of study.