100NL,how to extract more value from LP raiser?

Both villains are typical 12/10/4 TA regulars with 34% of attention to steal% and 82% of cb stats. We have broadways and try to defend our blinds. How often do you guys 3 bet preflop and see immediate profit ? I just posted these two hands where i wanted to play postflop poker oop against these guys.

hand 1: i think it doesnt really make any sense to bluff on this river even though i knew he had pairs other than ace in his flop calling range. So i lose my money in this situation if i dont follow up my bluff.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($98)
UTG+1 ($108.30)
MP1 ($57.25)
MP2 ($94.10)
MP3 ($168.35)
CO ($40.80)
Button ($123.80)
Hero ($97.50)
BB ($78.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
6 folds, Button raises to $4, Hero calls $3.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($9) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $6, Hero raises to $18, Button calls $12.

Turn: ($45) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($45) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $45

hand 2; Again, i had broadways and tried not to 3 bet him cuz i might pick up his cb on the flop.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($53.30)
SB ($16.20)
Hero ($102)
UTG ($57)
MP1 ($138)
MP2 ($98.50)
CO ($100)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
2 folds, MP2 raises to $4, 3 folds, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $6, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($20.50) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

River: ($20.50) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: $20.50

:qd: :ks: It's difficult to extract value with king high. You might be better off pumping it pre and trying to take it down there. I just recommend this because it's a far better idea than pumping a bet 3x when villain has 3 more cards and position on you. btw, ace on the river is a great card for you, if you know how to use it... ie villain calls flop c/r with an ace seldom.


:ac: :tc: Much better spot on the flop to be c/r 3x than the kq hand. Because you called, it's hard not being scared with the high % of scary turn and/river cards on this board. You left yourself in a tough spot for the remainder...

hand 1: Wouldnt it more profitable for us to pick up more money given their high cb% and attention to steal%? Given my c/r on flop and weak turn check line, its very hard to force him to fold any flop overpairs on this ace river if there's no more future hammerIMO.
hand 2: Do we really want to turn our top pair with ace blocker into bluffing and build a big pot oop if we c/r him ?
Currently, i 'm trying to find the balance between 3 bet preflop and postflop bluff . :P

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

:qd: :ks: It's difficult to extract value with king high. You might be better off pumping it pre and trying to take it down there. I just recommend this because it's a far better idea than pumping a bet 3x when villain has 3 more cards and position on you. btw, ace on the river is a great card for you, if you know how to use it... ie villain calls flop c/r with an ace seldom.


:ac: :tc: Much better spot on the flop to be c/r 3x than the kq hand. Because you called, it's hard not being scared with the high % of scary turn and/river cards on this board. You left yourself in a tough spot for the remainder...

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Originally Posted by pokerfan

hand 2: Do we really want to turn our top pair with ace blocker into bluffing and build a big pot oop if we c/r him ?

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Better than doing this with king high.

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

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Originally Posted by pokerfan

hand 2: Do we really want to turn our top pair with ace blocker into bluffing and build a big pot oop if we c/r him ?

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Better than doing this with king high.

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wat?

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Originally Posted by badgers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pokerfan

hand 2: Do we really want to turn our top pair with ace blocker into bluffing and build a big pot oop if we c/r him ?

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Better than doing this with king high.

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wat?

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I would rather build a pot oop with TP than king high.

K high is a bluff ldo.

It's very hard to justify raising AT for value on hand two.

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Originally Posted by badgers

K high is a bluff ldo.

It's very hard to justify raising AT for value on hand two.

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I don't recommend building pots when you have weak hands, including your bluffing hands. The best time to bluff is when the pot is at its smallest ie. preflop.

I'm not raising AT on that board for value, but for protection. Scary board, so I'm betting to protect my hand. I know that many players will disagree and say unsubstantial things like "protecting your hand is overrated," and I cannot disagree. However, there are spots such as these where there are countless cards on the turn/river that are going to force us to hope the pot stays small. So then, we are not only oop, but we are facing a spot with a much higher difficulty than on the flop.

You know what's more overrated than protecting our hand? Extracting value with a pair of tens oop on a scary board.