I'm such a donk.. quasi deep... 5/10 with KK

-Villain in this hand is the same villain as in the QQ hand I posted. Alexos tells me that he did indeed change his screenname, so my reads from his other name are that he's pretty aggro in position and folds OOP
-The stats on his old screen-name are 20/17/4.66 TAGG
-I have no real relevant image at this table, once again we hadn't played any hands together yet on this day

-I took a very unconventional line this hand, and I normally just bet bet bet until I give a reason otherwise. 5% of the time I might take this line.
-Flop c/c was for pot control, since I really didn't feel like getting raised in this spot OOP for 150bb's deep. Turn donk-lead was to protect my hand against him checking through for another spade

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $2002.50
UTG+1: $1000
CO: $1514.50
Button: $1074.27
SB: $1047
BB: $955

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with :kd: :kc:
Hero raises to $40, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: :2s: :js: :3h: ($95, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $72, Hero calls.

Turn: :6s: ($239, 2 players)
Hero bets $140, CO raises to $340, Hero regrets donk leading and...??

You played this extremely goofy but really absolutely fine, it actually seems like a pretty decent line. It's so goofy that it's an easy fold unless the opponent is very good at knowing what you're thinking.

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

You played this extremely goofy but really absolutely fine, it actually seems like a pretty decent line. It's so goofy that it's an easy fold unless the opponent is very good at knowing what you're thinking.

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How do you think the fact that he probably knows I NEVER have a flush in this spot should influence my decision.

Cause it's probably very true that I'd rarely c/c flop with a FD instead of leading it myself.

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

You played this extremely goofy but really absolutely fine, it actually seems like a pretty decent line. It's so goofy that it's an easy fold unless the opponent is very good at knowing what you're thinking.

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Yah this sumed up my thoughts when Grif first showed me the hand... I fold w/out much thought. Now on the other hand, this guy is super aggro usually, so I prefer a line of bet flop, c/c turn, c/c river... obv depending on cards but as a general idea

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Originally Posted by Alexos

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

You played this extremely goofy but really absolutely fine, it actually seems like a pretty decent line. It's so goofy that it's an easy fold unless the opponent is very good at knowing what you're thinking.

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Yah this sumed up my thoughts when Grif first showed me the hand... I fold w/out much thought. Now on the other hand, this guy is super aggro usually, so I prefer a line of bet flop, c/c turn, c/c river... obv depending on cards but as a general idea

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If you're trying to pot control OOP deep against an aggressive opponent, I'd say the flop is the MOST likely spot to get bluff raised, value raised or semi bluff raised. So betting the flop is asking for the pot to get bloated, moreso than leading the turn I'd imagine. It just so happens that I caught a really bad turn card, which will happen 20% of the time, that will very likely get value/bluff raised on the turn. But most other turn cards would result in him flatting most of his turn range I'd imagine.

As played, is this really such an easy turn fold?

dont understand why u chose to smooth call the flop rather than lead reraise all in or check reraise.

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Originally Posted by MehFU

dont understand why u chose to smooth call the flop rather than lead reraise all in or check reraise.

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Didn't want to bloat the pot OOP this deep.

c/r might also blow him out of the pot. I usually lead in this spot, but this time just felt like c/c to mix it up.

If you c/c flop, c/c turn again. Villain probably thinks you very rarely have a flush when you donkbet turn so if he is aggro, he will autoraise you with air or his turn semibluffs. No, it is not an easy fold when you get raised but you will get raised a lot.

I think this is a bad line to take against an aggressive thinking player. Because your line looks so fishy, he may decide to raise a wide range against you (which includes not only flushes and bluffs, but also hands worse than flushes but better than two kings), which puts you in a very difficult position. I think checking the turn is better since this might induce a double barrel bluff. If he checks behind, you have a strong value bet on a blank river.

If i had KsK I obviously will c/c again on the turn.

I guess I decided to lead and make any of his air pay to draw to a spade, instead of allowing any rag spade a free draw to the river.

But I agree with the last few posts, that my donk lead here is gonna get raised by a wide range which sucks pretty hard.

Well, if it's right to make him pay on the turn, why is it right not to on the flop? I think a check-call on the flop is fine, and on the turn for the same reason. Making players pay to draw when you probably have the best hand is in general a good rule of thumb in poker, but it's not absolutely necessary, especially when giving free cards "seems like" the wrong play with your hand, and so helps conceal it.

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Well, if it's right to make him pay on the turn, why is it right not to on the flop? I think a check-call on the flop is fine, and on the turn for the same reason. Making players pay to draw when you probably have the best hand is in general a good rule of thumb in poker, but it's not absolutely necessary, especially when giving free cards "seems like" the wrong play with your hand, and so helps conceal it.

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Yah I guess my logic was that its somewhat possible he could have two spades, but it's definitely much more likely he has at least one spade. Hence me not minding c/c the flop but wanting to protect more on the turn.

But yah I guess he'll only spike 20% of the time anyhow.

I'm just wondering if it would be bad to call that turn raise and then c/c the river barring another spade, Jack or Ace, since opp is likely enough to figure you don't have a flush and raise whatever is in his hand.

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Originally Posted by cowboyardee

I'm just wondering if it would be bad to call that turn raise and then c/c the river barring another spade, Jack or Ace, since opp is likely enough to figure you don't have a flush and raise whatever is in his hand.

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Haha, well I'm wondering the same thing! Since this is the exact line I took, for better or for worse... :)