questionable 3bet, 200bb deep

villain is 26/20/3.0 over 70 hands, calls 55% of 3bets. at the time, i wanted to pot control and check back to get value on the river. in retrospect, i think i have to bet this turn like 100% of the time given how draw heavy it is. Also, how is this 3bet. Im pretty sure we want to 3bet a stronger, more balanced range when villains are calling alot of 3bets, especially OOP, but also i think 3betting lukewarm hands like this deep isnt that great. comments on everything please.


PokerStars Game #18187107086: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/06/16 - 21:56:22 (ET)
Table 'Wetherill' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: beakachu ($9.25 in chips)
Seat 2: JipTony88 ($112.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Bode-ist ($106 in chips)
Seat 4: JPBel ($130.75 in chips)
Seat 5: wesdubL ($50.70 in chips)
Seat 6: NPL_Texas ($50 in chips)
JPBel: posts small blind $0.25
wesdubL: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bode-ist [:Jc: :Ks:]
NPL_Texas: folds
beakachu: folds
JipTony88: raises $1.50 to $2
Bode-ist: raises $5 to $7
JPBel: folds
wesdubL: folds
JipTony88: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [:2h: :Js: :9s:]
JipTony88: checks
Bode-ist: bets $10
JipTony88: calls $10
*** TURN *** [:2h: :Js: :9s: :4h:]
JipTony88: checks
Bode-ist: checks
*** RIVER *** [:2h: :Js: :9s: :4h: :Qs:]
JipTony88: bets $20
Bode-ist: ???

awwww in

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

awwww in

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pet peave: when someone says something like that in a situation where it is pretty far from obvious. that is to say that bluff shoving is seldom like, omg obv.

Just bet the turn and check behind the river. Makes it a bit easier. And wtf at allin

wasn t saying it was and "ez all in"

just think it's a good spot to put someone playing lots of 3 bet pots in a terrible spot when we can def have nut hands and he can't

why cant he have a nut hand? call 3bet stat is totally useless imo. we have no idea what kind of hands he is playing in 3bet pots, and unless he showed a big bluff in the 70 hands we have on him, im playing this hand like basically assuming he is relatively competent based on vpip/pfr/af, and other than that, hes unknown.

i think hes leading a pretty tight and strong range of hands on this river. but besides that, why would you bluff with a reasonably good bluff catcher?

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Originally Posted by will641

why cant he have a nut hand? call 3bet stat is totally useless imo. we have no idea what kind of hands he is playing in 3bet pots, and unless he showed a big bluff in the 70 hands we have on him, im playing this hand like basically assuming he is relatively competent based on vpip/pfr/af, and other than that, hes unknown.

i think hes leading a pretty tight and strong range of hands on this river. but besides that, why would you bluff with a reasonably good bluff catcher?

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because he can't call with almost anything that he has anyways as we are often being value-towned here by a float like KQ or a hand like QT

We have K blocker for the nut straight and J blocker for JJJ so his calling, assuming he isn't wacko, is pretty much str8's and sets.

8T is in a sick spot. Even the sets are in a sick spot.

But beyond this, we don't expect a player with smartlag stats to be check-calling oop with KT or 8T. Also OOP aggro players raise overs + FD close to 100% of the time in my experience. So I don't see him showing up with a high flush.

Adding the fact that our hand is a bluff-catcher to the assumption that we'll be folding out a bunch better hands that can't call a shove makes shoving more +ev.

imo lol

considering your line + his af I call. You've shown no real strength and the Q of spades is a really nice bluff card. (bet turn/check river is def. better though)

I just fold I really dont think you're going to show a profit long term calling river leads with 2nd pair GK after villian plays the hand in call mode and then bets out oop when every draw in the world hits something on the river that beats you. (You only beat a bluff & not many villians float cbet oop in 3bet pots with 0 equity.)

Shoving is plausible but marginal and high variance. I would only do it if I planned to play at least another 30 min at the table where Id be able to capitalise on my image if my bluff got called.

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

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Originally Posted by will641

why cant he have a nut hand? call 3bet stat is totally useless imo. we have no idea what kind of hands he is playing in 3bet pots, and unless he showed a big bluff in the 70 hands we have on him, im playing this hand like basically assuming he is relatively competent based on vpip/pfr/af, and other than that, hes unknown.

i think hes leading a pretty tight and strong range of hands on this river. but besides that, why would you bluff with a reasonably good bluff catcher?

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because he can't call with almost anything that he has anyways as we are often being value-towned here by a float like KQ or a hand like QT

We have K blocker for the nut straight and J blocker for JJJ so his calling, assuming he isn't wacko, is pretty much str8's and sets.

8T is in a sick spot. Even the sets are in a sick spot.

But beyond this, we don't expect a player with smartlag stats to be check-calling oop with KT or 8T. Also OOP aggro players raise overs + FD close to 100% of the time in my experience. So I don't see him showing up with a high flush.

Adding the fact that our hand is a bluff-catcher to the assumption that we'll be folding out a bunch better hands that can't call a shove makes shoving more +ev.

imo lol

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genitruc, while this is great in theory, its 50nl were talking about here, not 5/10. also, why cant he show up with a hand like JQ/J9/QT/random spades here that is calling a push anyways. If he sees me shove, asumming he is a somewhat thinking player, what hand can he put ME on? I had been 3betting some, but not crazy light or anything where im going to show up with trash spades or something. Really the only nut hand he could put me on with a shove would be AsKs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by will641

why cant he have a nut hand? call 3bet stat is totally useless imo. we have no idea what kind of hands he is playing in 3bet pots, and unless he showed a big bluff in the 70 hands we have on him, im playing this hand like basically assuming he is relatively competent based on vpip/pfr/af, and other than that, hes unknown.

i think hes leading a pretty tight and strong range of hands on this river. but besides that, why would you bluff with a reasonably good bluff catcher?

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i dont really put alot of weight on call 3bet % unless villains are calling 40%+ because then it bec0mes very obv they're calling with marginal hands.

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Originally Posted by bode

Also, how is this 3bet. Im pretty sure we want to 3bet a stronger, more balanced range when villains are calling alot of 3bets, especially OOP, but also i think 3betting lukewarm hands like this deep isnt that great.

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comments on the 3bet please? im still kinda confused as to which one of these things takes precedent, assuming i even said it correctly.

the 50nl I've played/railed featured mainly regs who were overly tight postflop

who knows vs this guy but I'd assume a villain who is 3-betting a wide range and defending wide as well is thinking

good point about it not being 5/10 though. me getting carried away ftw?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

the 50nl I've played/railed featured mainly regs who were overly tight postflop

who knows vs this guy but I'd assume a villain who is 3-betting a wide range and defending wide as well is thinking

good point about it not being 5/10 though. me getting carried away ftw?

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meh, theres a decent amount of regs that can find a fold with even 2 pair on this board, but there are many more that will snap call 2pair, or even a rivered queen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

the 50nl I've played/railed featured mainly regs who were overly tight postflop

who knows vs this guy but I'd assume a villain who is 3-betting a wide range and defending wide as well is thinking

good point about it not being 5/10 though. me getting carried away ftw?

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I think you're probably getting a little carried away. But I like your line of thinking and need to incorporate that into my game. However, I've been playing 50NL on Stars a fair amount recently as kind of a bankroll building project, and it's super rare someone's bluffing this river. And even if he doesn't have a nut hand, there's a good chance he'll think he's "committed" and figure "oh fuck it, guess I have to call now." I've very rarely found good looking stats represent a player who s good post-flop at that level.

You never really gave any reads on his post-flop play though Bode. Sure he's calling a lot of 3-bets but what is he doing after that? Folding a lot of flops, playing back at a lot, or calling down light?

also 3-betting all sorts of trash is fine in position, esp deep since most villains will open up their calling range ("ooh I'm deep, I have implied odds!") and we'll get to control everything that happens post-flop.


OP didn't really post a description of his image, so I just assumed we could show up with a hand like ATss, KT, 8T or QQ, all looking to either control the pot or not get bet off of their big draw on the turn.

this is a really interesting hand bode

i think id play the flop/turn the same

genitruc makes a great case for why shoving would be +EV, but id want to know my opponent could fold a set/small flush to a shove here before attempting it!

check flop

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

You never really gave any reads on his post-flop play though Bode. Sure he's calling a lot of 3-bets but what is he doing after that? Folding a lot of flops, playing back at a lot, or calling down light?

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sample was only 70 hands, but I think the 2 other times i had 3bet him he c/f the flop, once in position, and once out, both on Ace high boards.

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Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

You never really gave any reads on his post-flop play though Bode. Sure he's calling a lot of 3-bets but what is he doing after that? Folding a lot of flops, playing back at a lot, or calling down light?

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sample was only 70 hands, but I think the 2 other times i had 3bet him he c/f the flop, once in position, and once out, both on Ace high boards.

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sounds like he should be about ready to try to win one

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

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Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

You never really gave any reads on his post-flop play though Bode. Sure he's calling a lot of 3-bets but what is he doing after that? Folding a lot of flops, playing back at a lot, or calling down light?

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sample was only 70 hands, but I think the 2 other times i had 3bet him he c/f the flop, once in position, and once out, both on Ace high boards.

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sounds like he should be about ready to try to win one

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still campaigning for the shove?

if you think he s just trying to win one then calling's good cuz I can see him bluffing with a hand like 66 if you've been going to town on him

i tank/called and he had QT. i think calling is by far the worst option since like every draw completed. fold>shove/raise>call.

I don't know how nobody's mentioned it yet but I don't like 3 betting KJ against this guy.

bode, check stack sizes and your flop + turn action


i'm at least calling here

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Originally Posted by meeloche

I don't know how nobody's mentioned it yet but I don't like 3 betting KJ against this guy.

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could you explain the reason you dont like this? i asked about it in the OP but n0 one really explained it.

3 betting big crappy broadways vs laggy opponents is fine since it allows us to win lots of pots when we have similar hands (KJ vs AQ AJ, QJ, AT vs AJ A9 AQ etc) by ***yawn*** giving us the initiative and forcing villain to make high-variance plays like 4-bet bluffing or bluffraising a bunch of flops.

Without reads, it's probably more +ev in general than cold-calling pre. Folding a hand like KJ KQ AJ AQ to these people is bleeding money and passing up a good opportunity to abuse them when we're in position.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

3 betting big crappy broadways vs laggy opponents is fine since it allows us to win lots of pots when we have similar hands (KJ vs AQ AJ, QJ, AT vs AJ A9 AQ etc) by ***yawn*** giving us the initiative and forcing villain to make high-variance plays like 4-bet bluffing or bluffraising a bunch of flops.

Without reads, it's probably more +ev in general than cold-calling pre. Folding a hand like KJ KQ AJ AQ to these people is bleeding money and passing up a good opportunity to abuse them when we're in position.

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this is what i thought in general, and i usually try to 3bet a more balanced range vs Laggs and people who call way too many 3bets. Does this change at all though 200+bbs deep? i was under the impression that we wanted to 3bet a more polarized range when deep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

3 betting big crappy broadways vs laggy opponents is fine since it allows us to win lots of pots when we have similar hands (KJ vs AQ AJ, QJ, AT vs AJ A9 AQ etc) by ***yawn*** giving us the initiative and forcing villain to make high-variance plays like 4-bet bluffing or bluffraising a bunch of flops.

Without reads, it's probably more +ev in general than cold-calling pre. Folding a hand like KJ KQ AJ AQ to these people is bleeding money and passing up a good opportunity to abuse them when we're in position.

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this is what i thought in general, and i usually try to 3bet a more balanced range vs Laggs and people who call way too many 3bets. Does this change at all though 200+bbs deep? i was under the impression that we wanted to 3bet a more polarized range when deep.

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I think the 3-bet in position is fine as like Genitruc said, he's going to want to win a pot soon. I don't like 3-betting KJ for value if you don't know what to do here though. I personally would have bet the turn, he's going to behave because you're both deep, and you maintain the lead/control of the hand going into the river. Plus there's a few draws out there he might be thinking he has implied odds to the chasing like this.

But I think I need to work on my 3-bet pot game so my line of thinking could be way off. Still, as played, I would rather just call the river here, gain some info, possibly a decent pot, and move on.

The reason I don't want to 3 bet him with KJ is that I don't see many hands in his calling range that you dominate. I see more hands that he calls you with that dominate you. I think its close with this guy if he calls as many 3 bets as you say he does. KJ has a lot of reverse implied odds here and I'm probably not going to mess with him much preflop. I would treat him as station and just value town him.

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Originally Posted by meeloche

The reason I don't want to 3 bet him with KJ is that I don't see many hands in his calling range that you dominate. I see more hands that he calls you with that dominate you. I think its close with this guy if he calls as many 3 bets as you say he does. KJ has a lot of reverse implied odds here and I'm probably not going to mess with him much preflop. I would treat him as station and just value town him.

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Don't you lower your value hand standards vs stations? I really don't see why preflop should be any different against this guy.

fwiw, i dont really know if this guy was a station postflop. He was just calling alot of my 3bets pre.

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Originally Posted by bode

this is what i thought in general, and i usually try to 3bet a more balanced range vs Laggs and people who call way too many 3bets. Does this change at all though 200+bbs deep? i was under the impression that we wanted to 3bet a more polarized range when deep.

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polarizing your 3bet range would apply when your opponents calling range is going to include mostly monsters/small pairs (i.e. a TAG's UTG raising range). In that scenario 3betting K-J would be worse than 3betting a hand like 6-7s because you usually aren't going to get action when you flop TP unless you are beat.

otherwise id 3bet even more when the stacks are deeper, because we want to put our opponents in difficult spots when they are OOP and the stacks are deep. and when we 3bet we also take initiative in the hand, as opposed to calling preflop.

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

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Originally Posted by meeloche

The reason I don't want to 3 bet him with KJ is that I don't see many hands in his calling range that you dominate. I see more hands that he calls you with that dominate you. I think its close with this guy if he calls as many 3 bets as you say he does. KJ has a lot of reverse implied odds here and I'm probably not going to mess with him much preflop. I would treat him as station and just value town him.

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Don't you lower your value hand standards vs stations? I really don't see why preflop should be any different against this guy.

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postflop not preflop.

edit {I didn't' see a mention of any postflop station tendency's in op so theres no reason to assume he's going to stack off light postflop.}

Bode wrote

"i tank/called and he had QT. i think calling is by far the worst option since like every draw completed. fold>shove/raise>call. " - exactly

Meeloche wrote

"The reason I don't want to 3 bet him with KJ is that I don't see many hands in his calling range that you dominate. I see more hands that he calls you with that dominate you. I think its close with this guy if he calls as many 3 bets as you say he does. KJ has a lot of reverse implied odds here" - exactly

domination isn't that big of a deal (what is it, 1 in 8 flops will hit you both with the same pair?) since most of your money will be made when you both miss and you can control the size of the pot when you suspect you are crushed

also, for the hand in question, someone who is call happy is definitely not folding QJ JT and maybe even KT, esp if they are suited