Playing small PPs on the button in a limped pot

How do you guys play small PPs on the button in a limped pot? I know that on the button you are supposed to 'punish limpers' etc and play an almost raise or fold mentality. However, to me low PPs i.e 22-66 play poorly PF if you miss which is 8/9 times. If you raise it up, get a couple of callers and the flop comes all overcards to your PP what then?

Furthermore I play PPs for their implied value. I know I'm not getting the 8-1 I need to hit my set PF, but if I do it I have the whole of my opponents stacks to go for. If there are 5 other people in the pot then I have 5 stacks to go at but if I have raised it and isolated one of the other players then there is only his stack. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's a higher chance that someone has flopped something where there are more people in the pot. Sounds obvious but is very true.

I take a similar attitude to suited connectors for their implied odds. Obviously if it is folded to me on the button then I will raise any PP and any SC. I'd just like to make that clear so you don't think I'm weak tight.

Thoughts?

raise

definitely raise, chances are youll take down the pot there and then and if you dont your in position with control of the pot. Also if you now flop a set you have a conceiled monster.Over the long term the amount of pots and dead money youll win pre or on the flop will outweigh what you lose or could have won set hunting.

On a loose table, you can definitely limp behind. Actually, limping behind is better than raising against a bunch of call stations.

However, you should definitely raise if most players on the table are weak tight post-flop.

It depends a lot on my image at the table. If I've been aggressive recently I prefer a limp behind. I also like to limp behind a donk and a reg caller. Either way is +EV

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Originally Posted by fisherman

If you raise it up, get a couple of callers and the flop comes all overcards to your PP what then?

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Who has more big cards in their range? The guys who limp called or the guy who raised over the limpers? How often do you think you are getting someones entire stack in a multi-way limped pot?

If you are playing with people who are going to call off a bunch of chips with a pair in a multi-way limped pots then limping behind is definitely better.

I dunno if I like limping behind here. Raise it up, represent big cards or a big pair and build a pot. Even if you miss your flop you'll take it down many times with a nice C-bet. You have position, use it. :)

Against one limper I almost always raise, but sometimes will just limp. I think overlimping with these and other speculative hands is a nice "anti-aggressive" play that helps you mix things up and appear to be playing straightforward (especially if you aren't).

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Against one limper I almost always raise, but sometimes will just limp. I think overlimping with these and other speculative hands is a nice "anti-aggressive" play that helps you mix things up and appear to be playing straightforward (especially if you aren't).

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I support this statement.

Also, it's really easy to auto-bet the button when checked to.

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Originally Posted by pankfish

How often do you think you are getting someones entire stack in a multi-way limped pot?

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People worry too much about stacking someone. Small and medium sized pots are just as important if not more so. Most people play so straightforward in limped pots that you can win way more than your fair share of them if you pick the right spots to attack weakness.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

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Originally Posted by pankfish

How often do you think you are getting someones entire stack in a multi-way limped pot?

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People worry too much about stacking someone. Small and medium sized pots are just as important if not more so. Most people play so straightforward in limped pots that you can win way more than your fair share of them if you pick the right spots to attack weakness.

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yeah, but we win considerably less when we do flop a set and usually end up with a similar sized pot we take down on the flop as we would if we had raised 2-3 limipers OTB to begin with.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

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Originally Posted by pankfish

How often do you think you are getting someones entire stack in a multi-way limped pot?

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People worry too much about stacking someone. Small and medium sized pots are just as important if not more so. Most people play so straightforward in limped pots that you can win way more than your fair share of them if you pick the right spots to attack weakness.

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I was just saying that you aren't stacking someone when you flop a set in a limped pot so the implied odds aren't as great as he was suggesting.

FWIW I don't think it makes much of a difference if you over limp or raise vs bad players. I don't think we need to worry about balancing our range here because good players probably aren't limping oop.

Another good time to limp is when you have a frequent three-bettor to your left in the blinds.

Ok thanks guys for all the responses. Following this I've decided that the best way is to put in a smallish raise on the button. Note that I make this raise to build the pot rather to thin the field or to gain some fold equity from it.

For example at 10nl if it EP, MP and the CO limp (pot = $.45) then I make a raise to $.35. This raise is small which means the blinds may call with marginal hands (and most of the players are so loose at 10nl anyway that this regularly happens) and it's only .25 more for the limpers to call. This means I get a large-ish multiway pot of about $1.80 instead of $.60 on the flop.

I don't raise larger, for example the standard pot sized raise, because this drives too many players which I don't particularly want to do. I know this sounds like the weak approach people who min-raise AA but I think there is a big difference and that is that with AA you KNOW you are ahead PF but with set-mining most of the value lies post-flop when you hit that set.

How does this sound?

Similar idea here. Playing to maximise mistake equity. Opponent in this hand was way too loose.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($37.40)
UTG+1 ($146.75)
CO ($306.20)
BTN ($198.70)
Hero ($243.00)
BB ($119.25)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is SB :2d: :2s:
4 folds, Hero calls $1, BB checks

Flop: :2h: :7d: :as: ($4, 2 players)
Hero bets $4, BB calls $4

Turn: :4h: ($12, 2 players)
Hero bets $12, BB raises to $24, Hero raises to $40, BB calls $16

River: :3c: ($92, 2 players)
Hero goes all-in $197, BB goes all-in $73.25

Final Pot: $238.50
BB shows: :ad: :9c:
Hero shows: :2d: :2s:

Hero wins $359.25 ( won +$116.25 )
BB lost -$119.25

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Originally Posted by fisherman

Ok thanks guys for all the responses. Following this I've decided that the best way is to put in a smallish raise on the button. Note that I make this raise to build the pot rather to thin the field or to gain some fold equity from it.

How does this sound?

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i don't think you should raise small preflop just to build a pot. if your raise has no fold equity, and you don't plan on continuing on flops you miss, why would you want to put in 3x the amount you could have gotten away with by limping? i can see where you might think you are getting the benefits of both raising and limping by raising small, but i think you would actually be losing the benefits of both.

if you have recently been active at that table id recommend limping behind, but if you have been quiet i think you should raise your standard amount and either take the dead money pre or set up a profitable c-betting situation postflop.

Ok, I didn't read the thread in detail but I did skim it and the question I have is - why didn't anyone ask about the stack size of the limpers? When on the button with a low pocket pair and multiple limpers before me I decide to raise or limp behind based on who they are (obviously) and how many chips they have. If they are generally 150+bb deep then I just re-raise, if they are 50bb deep I probably just limp behind to ensure I get a good implied odds deal out of it.

Generally, the more limpers, the more you should be inclined to limp behind with a pocket pair. If you follow the 4bb + 1bb per limper with multiple limpers it's easy to ruin your implied odds. And I don't think 'forgetting' about the +1bb per limper part is +EV.

Implied odds are still fantastic. There's a lot more to implied odds than stacking off. If you have 3 limpers ahead of you and you limp on the button and both blinds limp - the pot is 6bb and people have (generally) 99bb behind. If you hit the set you need to take home on average maybe 10 times your initial investment (1bb) to be profitable - this is possible, and it is also possible to get a lot more than 10 times your initial investment. People don't have to stack off to give you a fantastic implied odds deal.

The only problem with limping behind is that people will be in the hand with a lot of crap making it much more likely that any low and otherwise unlikely draws have hit someone so you need to make sure to price out draws when you do hit your set.