100NL - KK

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07-13-2008, 06:06 PM
Keilah

100NL - KK

Villain is MPAQS, a 16/12.5/4.5 reg, I have him 3-betting 6% of the time.

A)Am I retarded for not just getting it in pre
B)Am I retarded for minraising
C)Am I a genius who knows how to play poker

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($98.90)
MP1 ($29.30)
Hero ($165.15)
MP3 ($113.20)
CO ($61.35)
Button ($156.20)
SB ($96)
BB ($135.45)
UTG ($100)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $4, 2 folds, Button calls $4, 1 fold, BB raises to $16, Hero calls $12, Button folds.

Flop: ($36.50) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $19, Hero raises to $38, BB calls $19.

Turn: ($112.50) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets $55, Hero raises to $110, BB calls $26.45 (All-In).

River: ($303.95) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $275.40
07-13-2008, 06:11 PM
badgers

I don't use PT3 so I don't know how high the 6% 3bet is but it sounds like a lot. I like the fact that you didn't 4bet pre as with ur stats and a lack of history he's probs only stacking off with KK+ this deep. I think I'd rather call the flop bet and see what he does as it's a pretty scarily small bet. As played get it in obv but I'd rather just call flop and let him bet again on the turn. We have position and the board is super-dry, there's no need to rush getting this in.

edit: what sample size is that? I presume you'd need a pretty big sample to get an accurate 3bet stat.
07-13-2008, 06:16 PM
Fnord

I run a 6% 3-bet percentage at 6 max and I will 3-bet light every now and then. At full ring, you're gold here.
07-13-2008, 06:19 PM
Keilah

1k hands sample size
07-13-2008, 06:20 PM
d0zer

Yeah I only 3bet around 4% at FR, so 6 is definitely high enough that I like the call pre to get value from a lot of underpairs.

I like postflop too.
07-13-2008, 06:44 PM
badgers

see i still don't like the flop minraise even if he does 3bet a lot cos if he's any good we're actually over-repping our hand on this board.

If he's that loose pre I'd be 4betting if I'd 3bet him recently.
07-13-2008, 06:54 PM
Keilah

Yah I thought maybe that too in which case, after he calls the raise and bets out anyways, maybe I should fold.

These hands are pretty much just guessing games :/

Think other PPs could take my line to push him off AK and other air?
07-13-2008, 07:02 PM
badgers

no because you shouldn't be raising if you're going to fold when he bets the turn.

PLAN YOUR HAND
07-13-2008, 08:21 PM
aka_red

keilah your retarded... what does the flop raise accomplish.
your only ever folding out hands you have beat. ak lower pp
unless you think they can bluff jam over you. if your going
to raise the flop you should jam. you might get called by worse.

as played his calling your rr and than leading the turn weak hes
got you crushed. im almost positive you got it in bad here. i dont
think hed stack with less than AA+ here. WP scrub. at this point i
think you have decided you are felting. so if hes got you beat your
planning on giving him his monies.

AS A RESULT THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO EXTRACT VALUE FROM WORSE.
you have to let him a) valuebet worse, whatever you think
it will be i really doubt if he is good he is value betting worse
b) continue to bluff if he is already doing so.

if he checks cool you werent getting any more money anyways. youre
too concerned with getting money in its a 3b pot and you should have
no problem getting it in by the river if thats what you want.

this is one of the situations where unless you know villain is super tricky.
calling his continuation bet he will be forced to play his hand face up. not
many 100nl regs have balls enough to turn hands like TT-QQ into a
bluff. because they are almost certainly not doing it for value.

cliff notes: your hand is a bluff catcher.
07-13-2008, 08:28 PM
aka_red

CONGRATULATIONS YOUR NOT A THINKING PLAYER!!!
07-13-2008, 08:31 PM
badgers

zilla so mean.

he's right tho.
07-13-2008, 08:32 PM
Fnord

WTF???? This line totally fits with QQ/JJ.
07-13-2008, 08:34 PM
aka_red

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

WTF???? This line totally fits with QQ/JJ.

are you high?
07-13-2008, 08:37 PM
badgers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

WTF???? This line totally fits with QQ/JJ.

why is QQ betting out on the turn after we minraised?
07-13-2008, 08:38 PM
Deanglow

Since when was KK a bluff catcher against a 16/12 squeezer? I like the call preflop; either jam flop or turn
07-13-2008, 08:39 PM
spoonitnow

Your SPR is ~3 here, so there's no reason to think that you should have to raise at any point in this hand to get all of the money in unless it's on the river.

This is about the most super-safe board in the history of 3-bet pots, and raising is just going to run off worse hands. Make him take a weaker range to the turn.
07-13-2008, 08:42 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgers

why is QQ betting out on the turn after we minraised?

Because he still has an over-pair and an over-pair is a good hand.
07-13-2008, 08:43 PM
badgers

even when we're repping basically AA/sets? We don't have to make it so obv we've gone into stack off mode here.
07-13-2008, 08:54 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgers

even when we're repping basically AA/sets? We don't have to make it so obv we've gone into stack off mode here.

Because he still has an over-pair and an over-pair is a good hand.

Meh, it really depends on what his thought process is.
07-13-2008, 09:17 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgers

even when we're repping basically AA/sets? We don't have to make it so obv we've gone into stack off mode here.

Because he still has an over-pair and an over-pair is a good hand.

Meh, it really depends on what his thought process is.

No, it really doesn't. There's no reason to raise the flop here.
07-13-2008, 09:20 PM
Renton

i prefer fourtown preflop most of the time in this spot. I'm not going to go into why because its incredibly subjective. I just believe its more profitable.

The flop kinda is stupid. The minraise is only good when it induces light shoves, and no one is going to light shove when u will be getting over 3:1 on the call. Also note that its a pretty solid situation for him to barrel you on a ton of turncards when u call flop.
07-13-2008, 09:21 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

No, it really doesn't. There's no reason to raise the flop here.

Fair enough. That said when I see a turn donk like that, I'm pumping my fist against most of my opponents.
07-13-2008, 09:40 PM
aka_red

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

No, it really doesn't. There's no reason to raise the flop here.

Fair enough. That said when I see a turn donk like that, I'm pumping my fist against most of my opponents.

like i said weve already decided to felt so this is fine as his range is now comprised of air.
07-13-2008, 10:23 PM
Keilah

Quote:

Originally Posted by reDZill4

CONGRATULATIONS YOUR NOT A THINKING PLAYER!!!

You're
07-13-2008, 10:36 PM
Keilah

Hrm... so... say I had AK here, or 88 or whatever. If minraising the flop gets him to shut down without KK+ and sets... then minraising that hand would be a good play.
But I'm pretty sure that a guy who 3bets this often isn't giving up that easily, and if he is, good to know.

Anyways, that said, zilla's right about this not being the best way to extract from weaker hands, and spoon's right about the SPR.

Honestly I've recently been minraising in 3-bet pots a lot with and without strong hands as kind of an experiment. KK in this spot might need to take a lesson fom Renton's ABCD.
07-14-2008, 10:05 PM
TheSyphon

You need to take it down before he catches up. You ruled, so milk it.
07-14-2008, 11:37 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSyphon

You need to take it down before he catches up. You ruled, so milk it.

You're really off base here.
07-15-2008, 06:07 AM
daven

ok, here's a similar hand - except it's deep. Villain's range is AA.
I hate my flop re-raise - size, and action...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($258.25)
MP3 ($112.40)
CO ($100)
Button ($36.35)
SB ($279.40)
BB ($115.85)
UTG ($100)
UTG+1 ($213.40)
MP1 ($200)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
UTG+1 raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $16, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $12.50.

Flop: ($33.50) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 bets $16, Hero raises to $32, UTG+1 raises to $134, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $97.50
07-15-2008, 08:50 AM
spoonitnow

Okay let's get back to basics here. What are the fundamental reasons that we make a raise?

1. To get worse hands to call (this includes protecting vs. draws).
2. To get better hands to fold.

In these spots, min-raising the flop doesn't do either of these.
07-16-2008, 10:21 AM

I'm playing this passive post-flop to call down bluffs/overpairs