QQ vs Fnord

UTG is fnord. i had been splashing around a bit. probably been at the table 100 hands maybe, and been in a few pots with him on other tables, but i dont think anything too out of line. i had been 3 betting light. and afaik fnord hadn't done anything crazy, so i dont really have any reason to believe he's bluffing here besides the fact that he knows me and i post on ftr and we all know that ftr'ers luz to bluff each other in big pots.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($137.05)
BB ($328.35)
UTG ($333.70)
Hero ($281.20)
Button ($207.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
UTG raises to $6, Hero raises to $18, 3 folds, UTG raises to $42, Hero calls $24.

Flop: ($87) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $60, Hero calls $60.

Turn: ($207) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $231.7 (All-In), Hero...

dont think I can get away

If I check the turn do you bet?

I was sooo on tilt last night. 6 buy-in swong...

k, I'll be nice.

Pre-flop I don't think you're flatting KK very often. AA/AK could go either way. QQ/JJ/TT are flats. Not sure if you continue with AQ or even 3-ball it. Not sure if my ghey 4-bet gets you off your fooling around hands.

After you call the flop bet we can rule out AK/AQ because you don't distrust me enough or would have made a move with them by now.
Very likely: QQ/JJ
Somewhat discounted: AA/KK/TT
Not often enough because you play too straight forward: other stuff

Bascially, that's a terrible turn card for your range and I know that. Which makes it an ideal spot to push if I think I'm behind and a nearly impossible spot to get value if I think I'm ahead but you have outs because you're checking QQ/JJ with a spade behind often (or my guess on you is wrong, you don't stab nearly often enough) and giving up a free card in a $207 pot with just over pot behind just ain't gonna happen unless I have the As or am surrendering or have a stronger read that you're fed up with me and will push back.

P.S: Stop showing down 3oak against me when I call you down.

please explain the 30ak joke because i dont get it.

edit: nvm, i finally figured out it meant 3 of a kind. wtf just say trips !!1

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Originally Posted by will641

wtf just say trips !!1

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Trips is two on the board. 3oak is either a set or trips.

I played nice and gave you my thinking here, your turn.

If you want to know my hole cards you had that chance for $237 minus pot equity.

if Fnord does this pre with TT+ / AK then why not try n' get it in on the flop?

fnord is a nit so easy fold.

flatting 4bet very silly and awkward though ...

i much prefer to flat his UTG open w/ qq

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

fnord is a nit so easy fold.

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Have we played?

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

fnord is a nit so easy fold.

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Have we played?

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touchy touchy lol ... just jokin w/ u buddy.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by will641

wtf just say trips !!1

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Trips is two on the board. 3oak is either a set or trips.

I played nice and gave you my thinking here, your turn.

If you want to know my hole cards you had that chance for $237 minus pot equity.

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i explained my thinking basically. i just didnt really think you were bluffing enough. even though i had been 3betting light, i hadn't really been fucking with UTG. at the time i thought you easily could be doing this with AK, although looking back on it, i kind of doubt you are cbetting AK there, although i cant rule it out. i guess mainly i thought you wouldnt 2x barrel bluff me there without the goods given the circumstances.

dozer, i didnt raise flop because he will will call sometimes almost never with JJ? there are very few FD's he has.

i would normally not 3-bet this pre

turn seems like a fold for sure, doubt you are good ever

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Originally Posted by will641

even though i had been 3betting light, i hadn't really been fucking with UTG.

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Just looked it up. (PT3 rocks so hard for this.) You'd 3-bet me twice from the BB, once from a Button open and the other from a SB open. I'm happy with how I played both hands.

To be honest I really haven't decided what my 4-ghey-bet range looks like. I've just starting running that defense and getting a feel for how it changes the dynamic. So far, I'm very happy given how you played your Queens here.

Pre-flop I was going to carpet bomb you with 1/2 pot to 1/3 pot bets but changed my mind to my live game style of daring people to commit.

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

touchy touchy lol ... just jokin w/ u buddy.

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More just curious. I was playing my monkey gear last night and a couple people out aggroed me.

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Originally Posted by Renton

i would normally not 3-bet this pre

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I understand flatting Jacks here. I think QQ is too nitty. Although this gets into a broader discussion. Also, you need to consider how loose I'm opening UTG. I don't think flatting wide punishes me harshly enough in my monkey gear.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Renton

i would normally not 3-bet this pre

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I understand flatting Jacks here. I think QQ is too nitty. Although this gets into a broader discussion. Also, you need to consider how loose I'm opening UTG. I don't think flatting wide punishes me harshly enough in my monkey gear.

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its cuz the opposition isnt good enough yet at 1/2 i would assume. once you get to 2/4 and 3/6, 3/6 moreso it becomes much more of a viable approach because any good player is gonna presume a 3bet vs a UTG raiser is gonna be a polarized range.

flatting jacks is the same as queens imo, i would do it vs u cuz i consider u would understand this unless i thought the players behind me were so bad that they would all cold call as well.

i think a solid range to 3-bet here pre would be AKo KK+ and air

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Originally Posted by will641

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by will641

wtf just say trips !!1

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Trips is two on the board. 3oak is either a set or trips.

I played nice and gave you my thinking here, your turn.

If you want to know my hole cards you had that chance for $237 minus pot equity.

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i explained my thinking basically. i just didnt really think you were bluffing enough. even though i had been 3betting light, i hadn't really been fucking with UTG. at the time i thought you easily could be doing this with AK, although looking back on it, i kind of doubt you are cbetting AK there, although i cant rule it out. i guess mainly i thought you wouldnt 2x barrel bluff me there without the goods given the circumstances.

dozer, i didnt raise flop because he will will call sometimes almost never with JJ? there are very few FD's he has.

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this might seem like a broad assumption, and it might be true/might not, but i would guess that u undervalue the relative strength of your hands in 3bet and 4bet pots.

in a 4bet pot in particular, a pair is like the super nuts. i mean, in a 3bet pot top pair is the nuts ... so in a 4bet pot, there is even more money in the pot on the flop, meaning the equity of your draws/marginal hands is much much less important than winning the money already in the middle. for the most part, folding even ace high in a 4bet pot i woudl assume is pretty bad ... though i dont really play 4bet pots unless somebody flats my 4bet, in which case i almost always jam.

if he ever folds JJ to your flop raise, you make SOOOOOOOOOO much money the times u move it in w/ worse.

why were u flatting preflop if not to get it in on this board? i think this is probably a ridiculously huge leak.

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Originally Posted by Renton

AKo KK+ and air

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If you include AKs that's 2.1% of hands dealt. Throwing in QQ gets you up to 2.6%

who cares, i don't plan on 3-betting more than about 4% of hands as a bluf anyways so i don't need that big of a value freq

definitely call preflop without significant dynamic indicating u should widen ur value range in this spot