QQ oop, pot control gone wrong..

So I'm up against a regular, which I seem to really start hating as I feel I get outplayed like mad by them and have trouble reacting.

JONTE2007: 19/16/7.1 af

aggression frequency turn: 37%
aggression frequency river: 45%

this is what I know, have I been in this very spot with him before? NO

Why do I check the turn here, I just don't think he's continuing with anything that I get value from here, if he checks behind I can value bet the river and get paid by his smaller pairs etc, or sometimes I might check the river to induce a stab by him.

Obviously I have to call the turn bet, I dont' think he does it too often with marginal hands however, but he's very very aggressive in general so I just don't know how to react. They say folding in poker isn't such a big deal when it's a tough spot, but I just can't fold all day long. I did here.

is this a case where its either a huge bluff, or he has a set/fullhouse/str8 and decided NOT to raise on a dry flop?

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG mdrenth21 ($61.80)
CO Hero ($200.00)
BTN JONTE2007 ($242.95)
SB isuckatcards11 ($110.70)
BB zichina ($197.15)

Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is CO :qs: :qc:
1 fold, Hero raises to $6, JONTE2007 calls $6, 2 folds

Flop: :8d: :4h: :5s: ($15, 2 players)
Hero bets $11, JONTE2007 calls $11

Turn: :jd: ($37, 2 players)
Hero checks, JONTE2007 bets $21, Hero calls $21

River: :jh: ($79, 2 players)
Hero checks, JONTE2007 bets $70

Final Pot: $149

I think you're supposed to have a HH there somewhere...

7.1AF?

He bets when checked to.

i snap him off here.

a friend is suggesting i cbet more in this spot, and fire a nice size turn bet and fold to a RR there... I do think a player THIS aggressive is even capable of repping a str8/set by RR the turn but I don't have much of a choice if i bet turn to fold to a raise.

in this spot if he's betting every turn no matter what, are you only calling a smaller river bet, or you think he's still capable of bluffing for 70?

From villain's perspective, your hand looks like an overpair and maybe TT/99 that will fold to a river 2barril.
You played it well against a very aggro player. Now call the river. This is the way you get value from worst hands in this spot.

I know I don't play 6M but I was thinking about getting into and am starting to occasionally read this forum. So how good/bad would be potting the flop than c/s this turn.

as played definantly call river, i would probably b/f turn as a default unless given reasons to otherwise.

is it a bad sign if i m tempted to checkraise?

i guess that means i would call

insta-snap-fist pump-call. i bet hes one of those guys thats insta betting any turn when checked to, and he loves this river vs a passive line like yours.

i think a river shove would be sexy as hell here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bode

insta-snap-fist pump-call. i bet hes one of those guys thats insta betting any turn when checked to, and he loves this river vs a passive line like yours.

i think a river shove would be sexy as hell here.

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Do you think meta game is so important that you're ready to loose a stack vs a set/trips/straight the few times villain would have the goods? Or do you think you can have a crying call from villain with TT?

No, he has like ace high here
the only reason it would be sexy is river shove screams "YOU GOT SOUL READ, SUCKA"

Well I definitely bet turn. Not sure why you aren't betting turn?

As played, I have no clue what he's trying to rep. I snap this off 100%.

This is straight/boat or some kind of air worse than ours I'd imagine, with that air portion being more than 33% I'd say.

(genitruc: no point c/r'ing at all. his calling range of our c/r is waaay ahead of our hand)

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Originally Posted by jimmy44

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bode

insta-snap-fist pump-call. i bet hes one of those guys thats insta betting any turn when checked to, and he loves this river vs a passive line like yours.

i think a river shove would be sexy as hell here.

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Do you think meta game is so important that you're ready to loose a stack vs a set/trips/straight the few times villain would have the goods? Or do you think you can have a crying call from villain with TT?

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i think hero's line is so odd with his hand and villain is so aggro that if hes thinking he could look us up here fairly light. the only hand im really worried about from villain is the flopped joint with 67, other than that i think we're always ahead here. maybe shoving isnt great, but i think it will fuck with villains head enough that he may call w/ like 99/TT, although he probably 3balls TT here OTB.

Pretty much just reiteration, but anyway: definitely bet the turn, this guy is too aggressive and your hand is good too much to not keep plugging away for value. If he raises you can probably fold, because he'd have to be a real spewmonkey to raise a 2nd barrel on this board without the goods. You can then check/call the river, which he'll probably bluff because he's like that.

As played, definitely snap off the river bet. He's FOS a whole lot, and turning worse hands than QQ/trips into a bluff sometimes also.

(Also - I hate shoving the river, that's the very definition of "only better hands call." There's no reason other than metagame to do it, and it won't even work as metagame unless you show what you had.)

Snap it off, I think checking the turn is bad and gives him license to 2barrel bluff you off your hand.

I agree with betting turn....but I'm not so sure I'm folding to a raise.
B/fing QQ here seems to have your b/f line too wide against an aggressive opponent....are you b/fing AA as well? (hell, you might even be bluffing the 'scare card' or semibluffing a FD)

In other words; with villain probably floating a ton on this flop my assumption is that he's bluff raising this turn at least sometimes and we're folding too much by always folding.


But don't take my word on this, I'm not sure myself on;
- if our b/f range really is that exploitable.
- You get into a tough river spot calling a turn raise where your river mistake might be bigger than just folding turn.
- I'm not sure if b/shoving turn is even a +EV line with a standard stack of range of villain.

You cannot check this turn without knowing what your going to do if he bets. And a player this aggro is going to bet. You need to either bet/fold or C/C but either way your not going anywhere yet. Personally against a guy like this I think you hold the nuts enough to warrant getting this in. Go into HM and look at the hands he's bet in this spot. Not hard to do.

I never check this turn by the way. I bet more pre ($7) I bet more on the flop ($14) and either C/Shove the turn or Bet/bet turn and river.

Against a guy this aggressive checking turn isnt bad since he'll bet SO often. Of course the plan then would be to call him down, since we dont think he has a J he's just betting like the aggro-monkey he is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bode

insta-snap-fist pump-call. i bet hes one of those guys thats insta betting any turn when checked to, and he loves this river vs a passive line like yours.

i think a river shove would be sexy as hell here.

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listen to this man (river shove is a no-no though)

I almost want to c/r this turn but the difference between his vpip and pfr seems to low (he doesn't have enough hands besides pp's in his preflop calling range)

ya the riv cr shove is a waste of time

just saying that the way the hand played out, i d expect to have the best hand sooo often after checking the riv (unless villain had exactly J8) that my value-town instincts would be angry that no more money was going in the pot

so if opp is this aggro, do you still prefer the bet/fold line on the turn even if he's sometimes capable of raising this with a lesser hand to push us off the one pair he pretty much knows we have? or do we do this c/c turn line and flip a coin on most rivers?

it's rare i encounter someone THIS aggressive who isnt either a maniac or laggtaard, so it's interesting to see how to play against them, it's mostly an issue OOP of course.

turn CR is ok too. It gives away the strength of your hand (and is a bit of an overplay) but it gets the most value from floats and protects you from what will often be a tough river spot

folding turn after betting is very very tough since most aggros will almost always raise monsters on this board since they expect action, esp if they don't perceive you as particularly laggy and hence more likely to be c betting air

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Originally Posted by bspahn

so if opp is this aggro, do you still prefer the bet/fold line on the turn even if he's sometimes capable of raising this with a lesser hand to push us off the one pair he pretty much knows we have?

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Maybe I'm self-levelling, but I don't give anybody except a very rare nit credit for being able to fold a big overpair (unless the board is terrible - this one doesn't qualify); and therefore I don't suspect anybody except a very rare maniac of trying to bluff me off a very obvious overpair. My experience is all at 50 and 100 NL, but I doubt that 1/2 is that different. Most players can't fold overpairs, so a decent player (no matter how aggressive) who KNOWS you have an overpair trying to make you fold it - on a non-threatening board, no less - is a scenario I don't spend much time sweating.

Turn check is good TO INDUCE
we're inducing a bluff here
so call it down it's all going according to plan
we have an aggromonkey donking his money to us

im in the camp that likes checking the turn to let this guy bet our hand for us. the river is a good card for you, not sure if you realize that or not .... this guy is probably betting 99/TT for value here ALLLL DAY. i can't imagine ever folding this river. you might be playing too passive and scared if you are even considering folding here. you have to think about the reason you checked the turn, and realize what your hand looks like. it looks like 8x/77/66. so i definitely think villain will be value betting worse, i also think he's capable of bluffing here quite often.