Robb's help me stop 25nl spew thread

A discussion and some encouragement has passed through these threads:

BJ's Thoughts on beating micros #6
Spoon's Some encouragement for new players
Spoon's Studying vs. Playing
My post: What to do when someone says you suck at poker

Upshot: I'm studying. Leak plugging. Asking for help. I get some big ideas and can fix certain things. I want to post two sets of stats and get your feedback.

1. Here's one that has me puzzled. I'm down 3 BI over 1.5k small pp's hands. Here are my stats by preflop action:

http://xs231.xs.to/xs231/08395/smallpps600.jpg.xs.jpg

I can see that I need to work on set odds in raised pots, and ID 3betting risks behind me when I'm looking to flat. Possibly 3bet in rare cases from LP, on a good read. What bothers me most is the 651 hands of break-even poker when playing small pp's unopened. Shouldn't I be ahead more there? What other filters would you like to see to help me with this one?

2. Weak-tight? Here's my breakdown of 25nl by pot size:

http://xs231.xs.to/xs231/08395/25nlresults816.jpg

I typed the results of 5 different filters into excel. I spew in medium and big pots. So I would welcome hints about what things to search/filter and/or look for.

Some thing I've ID'd as problems in big pots:

1. Ignoring reads on passive villains who wake up.
2. Overshoving overpairs QQ - TT too often on flop.
3. Overplaying AK on flop when I catch air.
4. Stacking off too easily with TPTK/2nd-best overpair hands.

Any thoughts? What else should I be looking for?

I think this definitely has to do with your ability to read hands/boards. You seem to be doing fine with your agression, but don't think people will play back because of this. I think at 25NL almost everyone is at level 1 and thinking "wow, he is aggro. I wish I can get a good hand against him." They dont know how to react and wont open up their ranges accordingly to play back at you. They have 1 gear.

I like your early street agression but you gotta do something with the info you are receiving through their actions and looking at the board. It shows you get your money in bad a lot (or well, you lose at SD more then you win, so I'm assuming this, cause a 50k run of bad river cards seems less likely).

My advice to you would be to tighten up your allin criteria. Your high early street agression factor seems like it will blow up a lot of pots where you'll have tptk and you will valuetown yourself when someone outflops you. You think you're committed (and perhaps are) but you'll get your money in bad when the big amounts are on the table. Don't go beserk post flop and you dont need to win every hand.

1. Play FR
2. Become a nit
3. Profit

Heres what I mean about checking actual hands.

Click on the row 'raiser' and order by amount lost. Go through and identify wtf is going on. Are you falling for "he's bluffing" and raising with mid pairs on the flop? Are you treating small overpairs as the nuts? Work out what it is, and stop doing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robb

1. Here's one that has me puzzled. I'm down 3 BI over 1.5k small pp's hands. Here are my stats by preflop action:

Some thing I've ID'd as problems in big pots:

1. Ignoring reads on passive villains who wake up.
2. Overshoving overpairs QQ - TT too often on flop.
3. Overplaying AK on flop when I catch air.
4. Stacking off too easily with TPTK/2nd-best overpair hands.

Any thoughts? What else should I be looking for?

---

robb, i'll spend more time on this later.
Right now, a couple of thoughts. You are possibly playing low pairs over aggressively pre-flop, then c-betting them too much post flop? consider dumping lowest pairs from UTG.

Also, I mentioned already, calling big river bets is spew without a great hand or a great read. Dunno about you, but until recently I bet rivers too often, with a bet-fold approach. This results in putting the same $ in the pot as check-call would, but without going to showdown. Start check-calling rivers - you'll be amazed at how many bluffs you smash, the same hands that would be auto-folding if you bet = zero value.
AK is a great hand pre-flop, then its value declines rapidly...
Don't stack off light, and remember it's better to push than to call a push.
What' s the point of overshoving a hand? if you're ahead you get no value from it, if you're behind it's even worse...

I'm making a list of the leaks I've worked on to date, and the ones I need to work on. I'll send it through to you when i've done, it may be of some help? best of luck!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzzard

1. Play FR
2. Become a nit
3. Profit

---

Operation Current :cool:

What are your position stats, etc.

I have no idea what your base game looks like.

For the most part, I think people don't know what their biggest leaks are and often fix the wrong things.

robb,

i keep hearing you say, "overplay this" and "overplay that." start going through your HHs and give us some examples of where you THINK you may be overplaying something by pushing to hard, betting too much, or failing to fold when the passive wakes up. there may be things that you are doing/not doing on early streets that are forcing mistakes on later streets....or allowing your opponents to correctly fold.

i have no doubt, from previous conversations, you are onto your "big leak," but concrete examples may help more than stat posts right now. i think you've ID'd the concept, now lets get a bit more specific with it briefly to pinpoint how to fix it.

by looking at your stats alone it seems to me that you could make some preliminary overall clean up with two easy things: 1) you're playing too many hands for 25nl. 25nl is a game in which bluffing is difficult and people play very straightforward. Therefore playing 35/25 or something around there is not profitable unless you are really really good. 2) Im not sure im completely understanding these preflop stats and correct me if Im worng but you are losing all of your money when the villian is the raiser?--If my undertanding is correct then my inital reaction would be that you need to tighten your calling range. If you think about calling versus being the initial raiser, your range needs to be tighter than theirs for calling to be profitable. Also, im not sure what your position stats would look like but I would guess that you are playing too many hands oop. Not playing as many hands oop is a HUGE factor in winning at 25nl because since people play so straightforward it is so easy to get reads in position

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

1. Don't stack off light, and remember it's better to push than to call a push.
2. What' s the point of overshoving a hand? if you're ahead you get no value from it, if you're behind it's even worse...

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True #1 (discipline!!), and #2 I watch some of these HH's and think "you've lost your ever-loving mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigPapi

You seem to be doing fine with your agression, but don't think people will play back because of this. I think at 25NL almost everyone is at level 1 and thinking "wow, he is aggro. I wish I can get a good hand against him." They dont know how to react and wont open up their ranges accordingly to play back at you. They have 1 gear.

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This is great advice - something I hadn't ever really thought of. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzzard

1. Play FR
2. Become a nit
3. Profit

---

My FR tables are infested filled with ubernit ratholers. I'm need to switch sites to implement this. I don't think I'm ready for that, yet. But I'm thinking about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

Start going through your HHs and give us some examples of where you THINK you may be overplaying something by pushing to hard, betting too much, or failing to fold when the passive wakes up. there may be things that you are doing/not doing on early streets that are forcing mistakes on later streets....or allowing your opponents to correctly fold.

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Will do later tonight. I may have to vomit after p0sting however.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

What are your position stats, etc. I have no idea what your base game looks like.

---

I'll post the more general stats when I got some time, probably late tonight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by STHollywood

by looking at your stats alone it seems to me that you could make some preliminary overall clean up with two easy things: 1) you're playing too many hands for 25nl. 25nl is a game in which bluffing is difficult and people play very straightforward. Therefore playing 35/25 or something around there is not profitable unless you are really really good.

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Not quite sure where you got 35/25. The bottom line of the excel file shows my 56k hands overall - I have 19.5 / 15.8 / 4.65 stats. I play 6max mostly, so I don't think I'm overly loose. But I'm willing to consider the possibility.

It's also possible that you're not value betting often enough. Winning small pots when your opponent would have given you a medium or big one. Also, not building a suspect enough image to get action on your big hands.

I think aware-but-not-good players focus too much on avoiding bad outcomes and not enough on maximizing positive ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robb

1. Here's one that has me puzzled. I'm down 3 BI over 1.5k small pp's hands.

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Are you winning a pot every now and then without a hand in these spots?

Here are my position stats for 25nl (2008):

http://xs231.xs.to/xs231/08395/pos0908278.jpg.xs.jpg

Here are my showdown hand values - I think I'm not earning with enough with sets. At 10nl, if my flush earn = straight earn = x, my earnings with sets is about 3x. Here, I'm earning less with sets than either straights or flushes. And I appear to be spewing with 2 pair, so probably higher stack off requirements would help (like Daven said).

http://xs231.xs.to/xs231/08395/showdown233.jpg.xs.jpg

Weird.

You're getting RAPED in the blinds.
Your W$@SD is rather low. I'm not sure why, you play so tight. When I see numbers like that I know I'm running bad.

Chopper, here's an example of TPTK stackoffs I think were mistakes. Hand 1, villain is 47/3/0.7 over 115 hands. Hand 2, villain is 25/6/0.5 over 60 hands.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($4.75)
UTG 1 ($24.65)
CO ($32.27)
BTN ($19.72)
Hero ($32.37)
BB ($28.68)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is SB :ks: :as:
UTG calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.75, UTG calls $0.75

Flop: :9s: :ac: :8c: ($3, 3 players)
Hero bets $3, BB calls $3, UTG folds

Turn: :7d: ($9, 2 players)
Hero bets $9, BB goes all-in $24.68, Hero calls $15.68



$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($10.71)
UTG 1 ($25.08)
MP1 ($24.08)
MP2 ($14.49)
Hero ($37.40)
BTN ($4.48)
SB ($20.57)
BB ($9.60)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 8 players) Hero is CO :ad: :kd:
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.10, 1 fold, SB raises to $1.95, 1 fold, MP2 folds, Hero calls $0.85

Flop: :qc: :ac: :2d: ($4.40, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.50, SB raises to $5, Hero raises to $19.40, SB goes all-in $13.62

Here's an overpair example. OR is 30/10/1.5 for 125 hands. 3bettor is 43/9/4 for 50 hands.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($28.34)
UTG 1 ($54.29)
CO ($53.30)
BTN ($51.00)
Hero ($28.15)
BB ($27.52)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is SB :qh: :qd:
UTG raises to $1, 2 folds, BTN raises to $3.35, Hero calls $3.25, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.35

Flop: :6s: :tc: :7h: ($10.30, 3 players)
Hero bets $7.15, UTG folds, BTN raises to $31.75, Hero goes all-in $17.65

Against opponents this passive... and the board leading me to believe straights and two pairs are definitely possible... I'd fold hand 1
I'd flat hand 2 on the flop and be prepared to let it go, because a minraise is the nuts a lot especially a check/minraise (but then again I'm an FR player so my advice could be total shit)
What's button's range in hand 3? He's 43/9/4 but what does he 3-bet with? If we assign a range of AK/JJ+ we're barely behind. So if we call PF, we're not leading that flop. I'm checking the flop and proceeding carefully. But that line kind of sucks. So actually just dump preflop.

Hand 1 I re-raise bigger to setup a no-brainer flop push if the limper calls.

Hands 2 & 3 are both foldable pre-flop.

It's funny that I play so much looser than you, but I'm a total nit with AK/QQ against people who don't re-raise much.

When you read posts involving bigger games and get advice from people in them, understand that pre-flop and to an extent post-flop is so much more aggressive in those games. I think folding a good hand becomes less of a big deal as you move up because bluffing frequencies make it less of a mistake.

Hand 2 is not foldable preflop, the opponent min-3bet
At least call to flop KKx/AAx :D
If you flop an ace and don't get much action your opponent has KK, if you flop an ace and get tons of action your opponent has AA

lol, handreading

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

It's funny that I play so much looser than you, but I'm a total nit with AK/QQ against people who don't re-raise much.

When you read posts involving bigger games and get advice from people in them, understand that pre-flop and to an extent post-flop is so much more aggressive in those games. I think folding a good hand becomes less of a big deal as you move up because bluffing frequencies make it less of a mistake.

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Fnord, I really appreciate your advice, earlier and in the quoted post. I think one big turning point for me is understanding how the flop can ruin a great hand that you've 3bet pre, or can turn crap to gold. I mean REALLY getting it. I get a decent hand and forget I could actually fold it when I'm obviously beat based on the board/action. And then I trap myself.

I've been thinking about the RAPED blinds - trying to see what's up with that. I've been comparing it to the pot size breakdown where I'm WAY up in small pots (bb <50). I believe the major problem might be this:

1. Too agro oop - too much mindless cbetting
2. Not playing for pot control
3. Not using check/call and check/raise lines enough to keep villains from attacking any cbet with just their high quality hands

I think my blind/EP game would improve if played more pot control/small ball/passive. Keep the aggression for MP/LP. Any thoughts guys?

And BJ, if you read this, I AM searching my "big loss" hands for patterns. I'm just not reporting everything I find. And when I do, Chopper asks for HH's to prove it. :wink:

But I'll post anything here you guys are willing to look if it will help me improve. Just tell me what you want to see.

Meh, spew happens. Keep fighting the good fight and see flops against horrible players.

Obligitory brag post:

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($201.40)
UTG+1 ($228.10)
Hero ($237.00)
BTN ($200.00)
SB ($278.15)
BB ($233.20)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is CO :jh: :kc:
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, SB calls $5, 1 fold

Flop: :kd: :9h: :qs: ($14, 2 players)
SB bets $10, Hero calls $10

Turn: :jd: ($34, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: :2s: ($34, 2 players)
SB bets $40, Hero calls $40

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($202.50)
UTG+1 ($253.75)
CO ($175.30)
BTN ($275.75)
SB ($116.25)
Hero ($398.55)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BB :7h: :9h:
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $8, 3 folds, Hero raises to $24, UTG+1 calls $16

Flop: :8s: :9c: :jd: ($49, 2 players)
Hero bets $32, UTG+1 raises to $94, Hero folds

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($194.65)
CO ($372.40)
BTN ($197.00)
SB ($196.35)
BB ($43.70)

Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is UTG :5d: :5s:
Hero raises to $6, 3 folds, BB calls $4

Flop: :4c: :3d: :8h: ($13, 2 players)
BB goes all-in $37.70, Hero calls $37.70

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($331.60)
UTG+1 ($104.60)
CO ($218.50)
BTN ($69.90)
SB ($131.40)
Hero ($197.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BB :6d: :qd:
UTG raises to $6, UTG+1 calls $6, 3 folds, Hero calls $4

Flop: :td: :6c: :8d: ($19, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $12, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $12

Turn: :7h: ($43, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

River: :4d: ($43, 2 players)
Hero bets $30, UTG calls $30

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($76.80)
UTG+1 ($312.15)
CO ($199.15)
Hero ($492.55)
SB ($230.10)
BB ($204.20)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BTN :3h: :5h:
UTG calls $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: :5s: :6c: :kh: ($7, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $6, BB folds, UTG calls $6

Turn: :th: ($19, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: :3c: ($19, 2 players)
UTG bets $26, Hero goes all-in $484.55, UTG goes all-in $42.80

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($233.00)
CO ($53.30)
BTN ($216.15)
Hero ($193.00)
BB ($265.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is SB :kc: :th:
2 folds, BTN raises to $6, Hero calls $5, 1 fold

Flop: :jh: :8h: :7h: ($14, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $9, Hero raises to $24, BTN calls $15

Turn: :4s: ($62, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN goes all-in $186.15, Hero folds

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($206.00)
UTG+1 ($214.00)
CO ($292.45)
BTN ($199.00)
SB ($200.00)
Hero ($287.95)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BB :8d: :jd:
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $8, CO calls $8, BTN calls $8, 1 fold, Hero calls $6

Flop: :3s: :9s: :7c: ($33, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets $16, 1 fold, Hero calls $16, UTG+1 folds

Turn: :ts: ($65, 2 players)
Hero bets $44, CO raises to $88, Hero goes all-in $263.95, CO calls $175.95

ZOMG AK I'm supposed to go broke here, right????

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($187.60)
Hero ($293.95)
CO ($197.00)
BTN ($214.00)
SB ($270.90)
BB ($202.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1 :ac: :kh:
1 fold, Hero raises to $6, CO raises to $26, 3 folds, Hero folds

Final Pot: $15

CO wins $35 ( won +$9 )
Hero lost -$6.00

Having thought about my blinds/EP problems, here is an example of what I'm working on. Villain is 40/7/3 w/ VERY aggro flop stats: he's cbet all 3 times he was PFR, he donks often, he bets after missed cbets 5/6 of times, and he folds (3/6) to cbets or raises them (2/6). I only have 80 hands, but I'm pretty sure if I check to him, he's betting ATC.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($31.33)
Hero ($12.02)
CO ($6.89)
BTN ($6.89)
SB ($5.50)
BB ($23.88)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG 1 :4h: :4c:
1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, CO raises to $0.40, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: :5c: :9s: :9h: ($0.95, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.70, Hero raises to $1.52


If I lead the flop, I get called/raised mostly when I'm beat. The board is dry and missed his range. He's likely to hold AT+ type hands and mid pp's+. If I let him lead the flop, he'll fire at it.
1. If he has QQ+ or a 9 (unlikely), he's probably rr'ing. I fold.
2. If he has Ax, Kx, he folds.
3. If he has TT or JJ, he's got a tough decision. If he calls, I'm done with the hand. He's probably got a pair that beats mine.

Against this villain, I make a lot more by letting him bet, and c/f boards that seem like trouble, c/r dry boards. Thoughts?

Is the game texture such that limping > raising?
I would check there almost always against the opponent described. Meh on the min-re-raise. I would probably just peel. Go nuts on a turned 4 and otherwise check/fold most turns and rivers. Then again, with the extra outs against our pair, I'd probably just dump it.

edit: also your seat selection looks suspect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Your seat selection looks suspect.

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Can see your point, but big stacks to my right looked like ATM's. Loose and passive, tending toward stations. And it was 3:30 AM (USA Eastern), so not many tables - that WAS table selection/seat selection in action.

Thanks again for the advice.