Wherein our hero deals meekly with a pesky 3-bettor

CO is TAgg to the bone, my table image is LAggish - in particular I've won and lost a couple of pots calling down with AK no pair and the like. Is this played optimally?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($51.50)
Hero (MP) ($53.85)
CO ($61.10)
Button ($20.90)
SB ($55.65)
BB ($85.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.50, CO raises to $5.25, 3 folds, Hero calls $3.75

Flop: ($11.25) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($11.25) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($11.25) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $5...

This is horrible, you should be able to figure out why.

I think it's close enough to blah to not be full-on horrible. But please give me your detailed thoughts on it. Everything about this hand made me uncomfortable so I played it sideways.

Pre-flop I realize is a 4-bet a lot. I'd rather call in position than out, but this player's 3-betting % was small and I didn't feel like creating a big pot given that fact.

Flop I think is an auto-check.

Turn?

As played to the river - I don't think this player is checking behind me twice on previous streets with a big heart and initiative in the hand. For obvious reasons I'm not giving much credit to QQ or KK in her range. AA is possible though if so, it was played really weakly. I think she has TT, JJ, and missed high cards a lot. AK also, in which case I don't mind taking a stab at picking up the pot that we'd otherwise split. Semi-value, semi-block bet. Still horrible? Bet less/more/not at all? Help me out, I'm lacking clarity. If my idea of her range is right, then my stupid bet results in:

- I get picked off like 80% of the time, probably, when she has Th or Jh
- I don't get a call ever from a heart-free TT or JJ
- I get a call 50% and fold 50% (total guess) from AK
- Ditto for the heart-free AA
- She folds her random high cards always, which I was beating anyway
- If she somehow raises I always snap-fold

Eh?

Tell me more about CO?

Is he really 3-betting you light or do you think he is as an adjustment to what you think is a LAggy game or run of cards?

if your image is LAGish then you really need to 4 bet here, this is in the top of your 4 bet range.

wouldn t you lead the turn with A or Q of hearts?

Yeah, if I had the Q:heart: it's best to win without a showdown...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Tell me more about CO?

Is he really 3-betting you light or do you think he is as an adjustment to what you think is a LAggy game or run of cards?

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Sorry, I think my use of the word "pesky" was misleading. This was only this player's second 3-bet (both vs. me and vs. anyone at the table during this session). I don't think it was light 3-betting at all; on the contrary I would guess based on this, and prior stats with her (or him with a female avatar, w/e) that her 3-betting range even in this spot, even with my table image, was tight and standard. TT-AA, AK, maybe AQs. What made it pesky was the fact that I hate when I have AKo OOP vs. a tight player's 3-bet. (In position I'm fine with it.)

About that queen of hearts - I can't have it, DUCY? I could have the J:heart: I s'pose. In this spot I would usually lead the turn (and maybe c/r the flop) with the A:heart:, but probably not with the J:heart:.

if you really consider villain a tagg, 4betting and calling a shove preflop when you are out of position is basically mandatory. Assuming this isn't the case, the rest of the hand is meh whatever but your river bet seems insane. Its only positive functions seem to be to fold your opponent off a chop occasionally if they are very weak/tight, and once in a blue moon get a crying call from JJ no heart if villain is quite loose passive. It just seems like a neutral to -EV bet overall though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

if you really consider villain a tagg, 4betting and calling a shove preflop when you are out of position is basically mandatory.

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Y'see - this is what I've been doing in this position lately, and I'm 1.5 for 6 (AA once, KK three times, AK once, and QQ once - I hit a king against the queens and chopped with the AK). I don't want to be too results-oriented or anything but I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't play AKo closer to the vest against these 50 NL people that only 3-bet the best 4 hands in the deck. It's one of those rare poker situations that I understand the logic perfectly (OOP, you miss the flop a lot, you don't always get paid when you hit, AK isn't a big dog to most hands, etc.) but I'm having a hard time getting past the fact that it seems to keep costing me my stack. I guess I need to just get over it and start putting chips in. Variance, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

It just seems like a neutral to -EV bet overall though.

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Fair enough. If I check and opp bets, am I just taking a mulligan and folding?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dalecooper

I don't want to be too results-oriented or anything but I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't play AKo closer to the vest against these 50 NL people that only 3-bet the best 4 hands in the deck.

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I fuck around a lot at 50NL to try new things in my game for like an hour every night. Unless you have a read otherwise, getting AK in preflop vs them is definitely mandatory. I think you've just had a bad run results-wise.

Folding pre-flop here is fine. Fuck the haters.

are you counting all the times they folded?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

are you counting all the times they folded?

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I'm only talking about specific situations when a TAgg with a small 3-bet percentage over a medium or large sample 3-bet me in position (as opposed to from the blinds, because I believe everybody's blind 3-betting is getting lighter now). Looser players & 3-bets from the blinds vs. a button raise are both excluded. I've certainly 4-bet with AK and gotten some folds, but usually those were involving spots and/or players where the hand range was a lot wider than top 3%. (For that matter I've 4-bet with AT and 97s and gotten folds, too.)

is a Tagg still a tagg if he 3bets a tiny, unbalanced range in position? I can definitely see folding AK preflop in this spot vs some players, but I would not call them taggs.

ya those would be nits lol

Ha ha - point taken. How about "plays a conservative full ring-style TAgg game even though this is a more aggressive 6max table"?

I guess truthfully I am used to thinking of TAgg play primarily in terms of 1. pre-flop raising range, and 2. bet frequency and sizing after the flop. 3-betting is not something I consider in that usually, although I spend a lot of time thinking about it in my own game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

is a Tagg still a tagg if he 3bets a tiny, unbalanced range in position? I can definitely see folding AK preflop in this spot vs some players, but I would not call them taggs.

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There are very few real taggs at op's level...maybe a bit more on his site (FT), but on others there are not (PP, PS). They might look tagg at their opening +cbet standards, but that's usually where it ends.
A lot are nits or loose passives, most others are lag's/maniacs who don't really know what they're doing, but pick up lots of pots anyhow because of the nits. IMO.