400NL - KK UTG gets 3-bet in MP, Opt to Flat, Q High Flop

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10-22-2008, 11:01 PM
KeliSobrao

400NL - KK UTG gets 3-bet in MP, Opt to Flat, Q High Flop

Villain is 13/10 over many thousands and pretty straight forward. His 3-bet % in middle position is 2.1%, so I can be pretty positive he has a range of QQ+, AK here. He is a thinking player and if I 4-bet I feel like he can identify my range as KK+, knowing that I know 4-betting AK or QQ here would be spew. So flatting the 3-bet pre-flop keeps his range wider and my range in his eyes wider too I guess.

On the flop, I'm not really sure if he c-bets his entire range or checks behind all his holdings (ie. should I be c/f or c/c one street)... So I'd like some thoughts on that and hence what is the plan from here on out.

Obviously on turn I'm not beating nothing and c/f is correct and river plays itself.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (8 handed) -

MP1 ($846.34)
MP2 ($892)
CO ($329.60)
Button ($79)
SB ($869.37)
BB ($196.20)
Hero (UTG) ($423.15)
UTG+1 ($1737.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
Hero raises to $16, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $48, 4 folds, Hero calls $32

Flop: ($102) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks

Turn: ($102) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks

River: ($102) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
10-23-2008, 12:00 AM
BankItDrew

villain has same hand

should have shoved turn
10-23-2008, 12:10 AM
bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

villain has same hand

should have shoved turn

WAT?
10-23-2008, 01:23 AM
Technooo

Are you serious? Bet that flop.
10-23-2008, 01:59 AM
bigspenda73

what at both posts in this thread not made by OP or me

I think if you flat PF you have to c/c this flop, turn looks like a c/f and river is obv
10-23-2008, 02:44 AM
kmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

what at both posts in this thread not made by OP or me

I think if you flat PF you have to c/c this flop, turn looks like a c/f and river is obv
10-24-2008, 04:19 PM
daven

Re: 400NL - KK UTG gets 3-bet in MP, Opt to Flat, Q High Flo

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeliSobrao

He is a thinking player and if I 4-bet I feel like he can identify my range as KK+

4-bet wider.
bet flop. Don't put in any more $$ once the ace hits.
10-24-2008, 05:08 PM
KeliSobrao

Re: 400NL - KK UTG gets 3-bet in MP, Opt to Flat, Q High Flo

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

4-bet wider.
C-bet flop. Don't put in any more $$ once the ace hits.

How can I profitably 4-bet a wider range of hands when his 3-betting range there is QQ+, AK?
10-24-2008, 05:20 PM
bigspenda73

God I should go back to FR after reading some responses in this thread
10-25-2008, 05:27 PM
IowaSkinsFan

Fourbet pre id say.

As played bet obv but its pretty much irrelevant.
10-25-2008, 05:58 PM
mcatdog

leading the flop is absolutely terrible
10-25-2008, 05:58 PM
daven

Re: 400NL - KK UTG gets 3-bet in MP, Opt to Flat, Q High Flo

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeliSobrao

river plays itself.

disagree. So how should you play this?
10-25-2008, 06:52 PM
KeliSobrao

Re: 400NL - KK UTG gets 3-bet in MP, Opt to Flat, Q High Flo

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeliSobrao

river plays itself.

disagree. So how should you play this?

Well if we continue with the assumption that he has QQ+, AK I would say its going to be pretty hard for him to lay down AA/QQ to a river bet, whereas he might check back with this hands. I think whichever way you play it lead or c/r you are only getting one bet out of him if he doesn't have a straight. And since check, check, folding wouldn't be an option for him when he has a set I would just bet...
10-25-2008, 08:00 PM
nutsinho

this thread is embarrassing to ftr
10-26-2008, 12:50 AM
KeliSobrao

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

this thread is embarrassing to ftr

Why....
10-26-2008, 01:01 AM
bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeliSobrao

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

this thread is embarrassing to ftr

Why....

b/c at least two people who play FR for a living made responses that were ridiculously bad.
10-26-2008, 02:32 AM
daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeliSobrao

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

this thread is embarrassing to ftr

Why....

b/c at least two people who play FR for a living made responses that were ridiculously bad.

i don't play poker for a living ;)

i started thinking a lot about this hand though - as I try to do when players i respect suggest that my thinking is flawed.
I quickly realised that i know nothing at all about op's image/playing style. Op states that villain is a thinking player, but barely mentions this - especially interested in what OP's pre-flop range is as played...

I'm still a little lost on where i've gone wrong, i think putting in money on the ace turn is silly, and river is the nuts so isn't the point of this thread. So it has to be my thoughts on pre-flop and flop. My instinctive response was "pre-flop i disagree with (4-bet), flop i disagree with as played - else why flat pre?!?" I'll re-examine that. As for 4-betting wider if villain will KNOW that 4-bet range is KK/AA, isn't that obvious when AK/QQ is 2/3 of villain's range?!?

Further detail on why from anyone thinking otherwise would be great....
10-26-2008, 02:33 AM
nutsinho

yeah not anything against you Keli. who are you on stars btw??
10-26-2008, 03:14 AM
Stacks

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

I quickly realised that i know nothing at all about op's image/playing style. Op states that villain is a thinking player, but barely mentions this - especially interested in what OP's pre-flop range is as played...

I'm still a little lost on where i've gone wrong, i think putting in money on the ace turn is silly, and river is the nuts so isn't the point of this thread. So it has to be my thoughts on pre-flop and flop. My instinctive response was "pre-flop i disagree with (4-bet), flop i disagree with as played - else why flat pre?!?" I'll re-examine that. As for 4-betting wider if villain will KNOW that 4-bet range is KK/AA, isn't that obvious when AK/QQ is 2/3 of villain's range?!?

Further detail on why from anyone thinking otherwise would be great....

I'm gonna try to not make an ass out of my self, but if I do at least I'll learn from it so w.e.

Anyways.. While image may come into play in situations such as this, the reasoning for not being able to 4b a wide range preflop, and thus not wanting to 4b this hand is based mainly on the villain's percieved range. OP stated that in this situation villains range is rather straightforward (QQ+, AK). Because this is most likely villains 3bet range in this situation, we are fairly sure he isn't 3bet bluffing. If an opponent isn't 3bet bluffing, it would be ill-advised to 4b bluff him. Therefore, we can't really open up our 4bet range in this instance, versus this particular villain.

To add to this, OP states that villain is a thinking player that he can be pretty sure would recognize a 4b from Hero as KK+, which would allow villain to not make a mistake. That is he could toss his worse hands (QQ,AK), and call with his better hands (KK+ himself). Therefore, we shouldn't 4b here if we are narrowing his range to only hands that tie or beat us.

So that's my reasoning for not 4betting preflop. Could be totally off, could be partially correct. Let a better player speak on this.

On the flop a check is easily the clear play here, as played. If we can assume his range is QQ+, AK, then by betting we allow him to toss AK, and only play back when we are beat/splitting. So on this flop I'm check/calling, allowing him to put money in when he is behind with AK. (Just a side note, I c/c here, but using combos if we assume villain cbets his entire range then we are behind more combos than we are ahead. QQ,AA = 9 combos...AK = 8 combos).

The turn is rather straight-forward I do believe. C/f, cuz if we are correct with villain's range assessment, we are now behind his entire range. And even if villain woke up with a 3b bluff preflop, a good portion of his bluffing range would now be ahead.

The river I'm not too sure about actually. Villain's likely range is sets or straights. If we think villain would fold QQ, AA to a lead here, then we should be checking the river to induce a bet from those hands, since we won't be getting a call unless we are splitting the pot. If we think villain is calling a bet with his sets then we can lead.

Oh well take it for what it's worth. A relatively inexperienced donk's rambling thoughts.
10-26-2008, 03:35 AM
JinxT4

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

I'm gonna try to not make an ass out of my self, but if I do at least I'll learn from it so w.e.

Anyways.. While image may come into play in situations such as this, the reasoning for not being able to 4b a wide range preflop, and thus not wanting to 4b this hand is based mainly on the villain's percieved range. OP stated that in this situation villains range is rather straightforward (QQ+, AK). Because this is most likely villains 3bet range in this situation, we are fairly sure he isn't 3bet bluffing. If an opponent isn't 3bet bluffing, it would illadvised to 4b bluff him. Therefore, we can't really open up our 4bet range in this instance, versus this particular villain.

To add to this, OP states that villain is a thinking player that he can be pretty sure would recognize a 4b from Hero as KK+, which would allow villain to not make a mistake. That is he could toss his worse hands (QQ,AK), and call with his better hands (KK+ himself). Therefore, we shouldn't 4b here if we are narrowing his range to only hands that tie or beat us.

So that's my reasoning for not 4betting preflop. Could be totaly off, could be partially correct. Let a better player speak on this.

On the flop a check is easily the clear play here, as played. If we can assume his range is QQ+, AK, then by betting we allow him to toss AK, and only play back when we are beat/splitting. So on this flop I'm check/calling, allowing him to put money in when he is behind with AK. (Just a side note, I c/c here, but using combos if we assume villain cbets his entire range then we are behind more combos than we are ahead. QQ,AA = 9 combos...AK = 8 combos).

The turn is rather straight-forward I do believe. C/f as if we are correct with villains range assessment, we are now behind his entire range. And even if villain woke up with a 3b bluff preflop, a good portion of his bluffing range would now be ahead.

The river I'm not too sure about actually. Villain's likely range is sets or straights. If we think villain would fold QQ, AA to a lead here, then we should be checking the river, since we won't be getting a call unless we are splitting the pot. If we think villain is calling a bet with his sets then we can lead.

Oh well take it for what it's worth. A relatively inexperienced donk's rambling thoughts.

I agree ~100% with this entire post/reasoning, & planned on posting something similar, but shorter, but you beat me to it. Bolded what probably would've made up my entire post.
10-26-2008, 04:03 AM
Stacks

I would just like to say when rereading my post I feel like I contradicted myself. Espeically here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacks60xX

Because this is most likely villains 3bet range in this situation, we are fairly sure he isn't 3bet bluffing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacks60xX

That is he could toss his worse hands (QQ,AK), and call with his better hands (KK+ himself). Therefore, we shouldn't 4b here if we are narrowing his range to only hands that tie or beat us.

If the above is true, then we "could" 4b bluff this villain. That is assuming we open to 4x, villain 3bs to 12x, and we 4b to 30x (18bb more), then villain needs to fold only 59% of the time.

If he is 3betting QQ+, AK (21 combos) and folding QQ, AK (14 combos), then villain is folding 66% of the time. So a 4b bluff would be correct.

However, that is assuming that villain would 3bet QQ, and AK, and fold to a 4b from hero. However, that is probably not the case, as hands like QQ, AK have value in calling, therefore, it's probably wrong to 3b and fold to a 4b with these hands, then you could achieve roughly the same ev (from fold equity), with less valuable hands like Axs, suited gappers, etc.

So pretty much what I'm trying to say, is that I don't think villain is 3betting any hands he is intending to fold to a 4b from hero here, but I could be wrong as always.

Also nutsinho, I'm very sorry for making this thread even more of an embarrassment. Shit happens. I tried.
10-26-2008, 05:10 AM
nutsinho

If you really think villain would fold QQ/AK to a 4bet and his 3bet range is QQ+/AK then you should be 4betting any hand with blockers until he adjusts and always calling with KK/AA. This is a fairly basic adjustment. Also, donk-leading this flop would be an EV nightmare even if he reacts somewhat predictably.

On the river, the chances he has a set is about as close to zero as you can get unless he's the worst player of all time. If our reads are accurate he must then have KK/AK so it matters not what action we take. If I had to choose I would say bet half pot because anyone possibly retarded enough to check back a set twice probably is not going to value bet it on a 4 to a straight river as others seem to suggest.
10-26-2008, 05:26 PM
KeliSobrao

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

If you really think villain would fold QQ/AK to a 4bet and his 3bet range is QQ+/AK then you should be 4betting any hand with blockers until he adjusts and always calling with KK/AA. This is a fairly basic adjustment. Also, donk-leading this flop would be an EV nightmare even if he reacts somewhat predictably.

On the river, the chances he has a set is about as close to zero as you can get unless he's the worst player of all time. If our reads are accurate he must then have KK/AK so it matters not what action we take. If I had to choose I would say bet half pot because anyone possibly retarded enough to check back a set twice probably is not going to value bet it on a 4 to a straight river as others seem to suggest.

Very good post! And the ones before it were good too. I guess I never really consider how much of his range as a % he would be folding to a 4-bet.

Results: I bet $60 on the river and he raised, he had AK.

For future reference my stats are 15/12 and my UTG raising range would be something like 9%.
10-27-2008, 05:46 PM
bigteif

I'm a donk but i have a question why is donk betting the flop and EV nightmare. It seems like we would be protecting our hand against AK
10-27-2008, 06:43 PM
Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

If you really think villain would fold QQ/AK to a 4bet and his 3bet range is QQ+/AK then you should be 4betting any hand with blockers until he adjusts and always calling with KK/AA. This is a fairly basic adjustment. Also, donk-leading this flop would be an EV nightmare even if he reacts somewhat predictably.

On the river, the chances he has a set is about as close to zero as you can get unless he's the worst player of all time. If our reads are accurate he must then have KK/AK so it matters not what action we take. If I had to choose I would say bet half pot because anyone possibly retarded enough to check back a set twice probably is not going to value bet it on a 4 to a straight river as others seem to suggest.

how this isnt the standard response to this hand from everyone has me shocked.
10-27-2008, 07:16 PM
bigteif

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigteif

I'm a donk but i have a question why is donk betting the flop and EV nightmare. It seems like we would be protecting our hand against AK

I understand were not protecting how would donk betting as a Semibluff not be the best +EV play?
10-27-2008, 09:06 PM
bigteif

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigteif

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigteif

I'm a donk but i have a question why is donk betting the flop and EV nightmare. It seems like we would be protecting our hand against AK

I understand were not protecting how would donk betting as a Semibluff not be the best +EV play?

NVMD