GG America: Warning (long right wing rant)

Every other thread I've read here has been "Oh Obama can I suck your balls, I love you!", this is not one.
I completely agree that anyone is better that our current commander in chief. But after watching interviews and listening to phone calls on different networks I realized that 70% of voters who voted for Obama had no idea why they voted for him. It was amazing to see our country unite and come out for an extraordinary amount of voters in this election but there was also a mass of uneducated voters who really swung this election with reasoning like "I want to see the black guy win" or "because I want change". Ask those same people what changes they are looking forward to and they immediately turn into mumbling bafoons. Why? Because in the 2 years Obama has been campaigning he hasnt revealed much about his changes. HOPE!! CHANGE!! YADA YADA!! He is the absolute best at saying nothing that I've ever heard.
As for the race thing, I couldnt care less. It's amazing our kids and grandkids won't have to grow up in a society where having a black man in power is so taboo.
What worries me most is his affiliations. A phone call on C-SPAN last night had a young African-American man stating " whoever keeps talking about Obama being a terrorist is ignant" (<--see the irony)
Everyone in America should be aware of who William Aires is by now, and if you don't he was a member of the weather underground who bombed the Pentagon and openly stated he wished more people had of been killed in the twin towers. If things couldn't get worse he is a longtime associate and dear friend of our president elect. Barrack states he was only 7 when they were associated and this happened and didnt know he was a terrorist but I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Obama's political coming out party was held in the living room of who? Ding Ding Ding, William Aires. His excuse, "I didn't know!"
What else don't you know?
His pastor for 20+ years Reverend Wright you know the guy who has been recorded saying "NOT GOD BLESS AMERICA, GODDAMN AMERICA!!" and the rest of his anti america slander. What's Obama's excuse of his association with him? "bibbity bee I didnt know it was going on"
SON OF A BITCH!!
What else dont you know?
Affiliations with ACORN and voter fraud. That's right, the entire Dallas Cowboys squad was registerd to vote in Colorado. By the end of this his ACORN group will be indicted in about 26 states due to voter fraud. Why? Because Mickey Mouse is not a fucking U.S. citizen and should not be a registered Democrat voting for Obama! What did Obama say? "I didn't know"
MOTHERFUCKER GODDAMMIT!
What else don't you know?

We are dealing with Jimmy Carter Jr. here and he will recieve 1 term and he's done. In my opinion he will fuck so much shit up that in 4 years America will be begging for someone else.

So thanks to all the uneducated voters of America who couldnt take 2 hours to really read up on issues and how this election will affect our lives, jobs, and country. Because when your Almighty Obama starts taxing the shit out of businesses making 250k+ and they outsource more jobs (because face it, they are GOING to make money) leaving you broke, hungry, sitting at home in a mustard stained wife beater watching Price is Right you are going to realize this was not the "change" you wanted. You have fucked Lady America in the ass and didnt have the common courtesy to use any KY!

I hope he proves me wrong during his term but until then i am going to be living in a hole!

WELCOME TO SOCIALISM AMERICA!!!

Cya around, hope the hole has the internet.

I didn't read any of it. But part A is that a lot of what you say is the other side of the coin. People who like to know enough to rant as loud as they can and stay one step above "the uneducated masses." Watch less Fox News plz.

And part B, this is how elections work. 50% of the people that would vote the OTHER way would vote because Obama is a terrorist. Just take solace in the fact that more uneducated people voted for Obama this time.

Obama actually made huge inroads in college-educated, white voters, while less educated whites broke for McCain. If you only spent 2 hours reading up on the issues, then you obviously never got much further than the Drudge Report.

Squeaky, as I see it, the republicans made two huge blunders in this campaign. First was the choice of Sarah Palin for VP. Sure, that ticket got a nice, temporary ratings boost from it but it proved to be the dagger down the stretch. The obvious goal was to energize the religious right (who are going to vote republican regardless!) but the end result was that it alienated too many moderate, sensible people.

The second reason (of course there are many more.. I'm just focusing on the election strategy) is embodied pefectly in your post. Hate, hate, hate, and more hate. The entire GOP strategy revolved around attacking the character and subtlety attacking the background and race of Barack Obama. After a certain point, people just called BS and saw right through it. That's how I see it anyway, so take it fwiw.

Look, I have my fair share of disagreements with traditional democratic principles (then again, I can say the same thing about the republicans), but I think Barack Obama is a good man and is going to make a good leader. And even if you didn't vote for him, we're still better off if you support him.

1. It's too late.
2. You're worried about the wrong things.
3. It's too fucking late. Hahahahhahah!

And you're 349 drinks behind!

How is voting for elusive "change" any more ridiculous than voting Republican because your dad, your trailer park, your state is Republican too?

And why is it so bad to not view America in a shining light? 'God bless America' is a horrendously overused and jingoistic phrase that is hammered home and thus regurgitated without question. Every nation has done both good and bad. Especially the superpowers & empires: Roman, British, Spanish and now American. The USA is an empire in all but name. Those who buy into blind naivety & ignorance (masquerading as patriotism) are severely off tangent.

All superpowers have used their power for good and for self serving at the expense of others. Being able to look at one self honestly, even if that means castigating where appropriate, is never bad. Yet many, if not most, Americans will get all indignant - and through a knee jerk, Pavlovian reaction not reason - at the the sheer audacity of not automatically and unquestioningly swinging from the nation's nuts. To do so would be to not act free but as McCarthy-esque propaganda would have you believe those bastard Commies do.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

And you're 349 drinks behind!

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this is the only post i read because it is the shortest

Majority of people are dumb. Thats life. You're just pissed that this time those dumb people disagree with you, but next time when they do agree with you that they suddenlyl all got smarter.

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

he will recieve 1 term and he's done. In my opinion he will fuck so much shit up that in 4 years America will be begging for someone else.

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This would've happen if Mccain won as well. At least now, the blame will be put in socialism where it belongs when all is over. Obama was probably the better long term choice.

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/...pproaches.html

There is some chance that my company will get shut down in 18 months or so (not related to 250k+ tax) because of Obama's potential policies and I'm still happy with the choice.

He won because he started from the ground up, instead of starting with the highest bidder. This is the kind of change I want to see because the current system is completely fucked.

newsflash: most people are dumb, democrats and republicans included

And reiterating the lame (and baseless) talking points McCain used makes you look very ignant

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Originally Posted by Thunder

How is voting for elusive "change" any more ridiculous than voting Republican because your dad, your trailer park, your state is Republican too?

And why is it so bad to not view America in a shining light? 'God bless America' is a horrendously overused and jingoistic phrase that is hammered home and thus regurgitated without question. Every nation has done both good and bad. Especially the superpowers & empires: Roman, British, Spanish and now American. The USA is an empire in all but name. Those who buy into blind naivety & ignorance (masquerading as patriotism) are severely off tangent.

All superpowers have used their power for good and for self serving at the expense of others. Being able to look at one self honestly, even if that means castigating where appropriate, is never bad. Yet many, if not most, Americans will get all indignant - and through a knee jerk, Pavlovian reaction not reason - at the the sheer audacity of not automatically and unquestioningly swinging from the nation's nuts. To do so would be to not act free but as McCarthy-esque propaganda would have you believe those bastard Commies do.

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I think this proves you aren't REALLY retarded.

Edit: I just remembered you're English so it doesn't mean as much but amen still.

i think spoons sig is a form of spam.

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

newsflash: most people are dumb, democrats and republicans included

And reiterating the lame (and baseless) talking points McCain used makes you look very ignant

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I don't think you can put this on McCain.. infact I remember very clearly McCain sticking up for Obama and vouching for his integrity.

Instead, I think the blame lies with the republican party in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

If things couldn't get worse he is a longtime associate and dear friend of our president elect.

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You win the Jose Canseco Exaggeration Award. Congrats.

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Originally Posted by Lukie

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

newsflash: most people are dumb, democrats and republicans included

And reiterating the lame (and baseless) talking points McCain used makes you look very ignant

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I don't think you can put this on McCain.. infact I remember very clearly McCain sticking up for Obama and vouching for his integrity.

Instead, I think the blame lies with the republican party in general.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by ProZachNation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

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Im suprised he didn't give his acceptance speech! Guy basically thinks for him!

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

Oh Obama can I suck your balls, I love you!

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

But after watching interviews and listening to phone calls on different networks I realized that 70% of voters who voted for Obama had no idea why they voted for him.

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Other than the fact that you just made up stats, whatever the real number is, its a safe bet that the same proportion of people who voted for McCain would also have no idea why.

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

But after watching interviews and listening to phone calls on different networks I realized that 70% of voters who voted for Obama had no idea why they voted for him.

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Other than the fact that you just made up stats, whatever the real number is, its a safe bet that the same proportion of people who voted for McCain would also have no idea why.

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68% of stats are made up or exagerated 41% of the time!

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Originally Posted by Lukie

Squeaky, as I see it, the republicans made two huge blunders in this campaign. First was the choice of Sarah Palin for VP. Sure, that ticket got a nice, temporary ratings boost from it but it proved to be the dagger down the stretch. The obvious goal was to energize the religious right (who are going to vote republican regardless!) but the end result was that it alienated too many moderate, sensible people.

The second reason (of course there are many more.. I'm just focusing on the election strategy) is embodied pefectly in your post. Hate, hate, hate, and more hate. The entire GOP strategy revolved around attacking the character and subtlety attacking the background and race of Barack Obama. After a certain point, people just called BS and saw right through it. That's how I see it anyway, so take it fwiw.

Look, I have my fair share of disagreements with traditional democratic principles (then again, I can say the same thing about the republicans), but I think Barack Obama is a good man and is going to make a good leader. And even if you didn't vote for him, we're still better off if you support him.

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yup.

Wow, reading the OP was like watching fox news on repeat.

Question: Do morons know they're stupid and post their opinions anyway hoping for validation that they're not stupid or are they too dumb to know?

Random thought, nothing to do with this thread whatsoever, nothing at all to do with this thread at all, absolutely nothing to do with OP, nope, not at all, nope nope nope.

PS, I'm in the latter category

I think not.

I hate freedom too

the only thing i think is off is people's belief that the rich are really going to get taxed. even if they pass legislation increasing taxes, the rich will just find ways out of it. tax law is catered to the rich, which is why most of the tax burden falls onto the middle class. dont believe me, take a look at real estate taxation. there's a reason why alot of wealthy people invest in real estate. its the easiest way to increase wealth tax free.

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

I hate freedom too

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Ay Comrade!

Completely agree about the large amount of uneducated voters.

Nothing anyone can do about it. The Democrats played it perfectly, they deserved to win. It's not about the issues, b/c, Obama wasn't about the issues. Obama offers "change" and "hope" to the American people. That's what people need right now, not change or hope, but the potential for change or hope or whatever. The Republicans did a horrid job in finding someone who could match Obama's charm/wit/youth and that's what cost them.

I'm not a Repbulican or Democrat, hell, I didn't even vote, but from a marketing/sales standpoint the Democrats just put out a flashier, nicer looking product, and that's what sells.

Anyone else think Michelle Obama is hot?

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Originally Posted by Thunder

Anyone else think Michelle Obama is hot?

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She's ok, I wouldn't say hot.

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...but from a marketing/sales standpoint the Democrats just put out a flashier, nicer looking product, and that's what sells.

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this. and, when the economy is in the crapper, people vote change. when its fine, people vote to stay the same.

since tv and JFK, the presidency has been about pretty boys first. then, how are things RIGHT NOW. americans are extremely short-sighted and have terrible memories. see: any war since Vietnam, any tax rebate sent out in cash to spur the economy, and several other things i cant remember right now. hmmmm, i may not be short-sighted, but i do have a terrible memory. maybe i'm only half american?

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Originally Posted by Chopper

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...but from a marketing/sales standpoint the Democrats just put out a flashier, nicer looking product, and that's what sells.

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this.

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You're both wrong. The dems put out a nicer looking product because it was a better product.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

since tv and JFK, the presidency has been about pretty boys first.

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And how many pretty boys have made it to the Presidency?

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

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Originally Posted by Chopper

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...but from a marketing/sales standpoint the Democrats just put out a flashier, nicer looking product, and that's what sells.

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this.

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You're both wrong. The dems put out a nicer looking product because it was a better product.

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it cant be because. it was nicer looking. thats all he was saying.

all we are saying is that substance doesnt matter. it doesnt get votes. FEEL and APPEAL do.

how else did Bush get in over Gore (its not like bush jr had political experience)? Gore was stiff when speaking. so is McStain. Clinton was a true pretty boy. JFK blew out Nixon because of TV. didnt nixon get in because everyone hated LBJ? carter got in because people hated ford. reagan had smoothness. mondale/ferraro didnt...hence bush sr....lesser of two evils. bush sr out because we didnt like him, and slick willy came along.

it kind of works out. the sexier, smoother guy wins...especially when we hate the current regime.

talk about substance all you want. we would all like to believe it wins. but, substance doesnt win, or thats what the debates would be about....actual issues. instead its "just try and dodge the question and win the popularity contest." speaking of...when was the last ugly, fat dork to win "most popular" in high school?

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Originally Posted by Chopper

how else did Bush get in over Gore

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Because people are stupid, America is predominantly Republican and verry conservative.

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Clinton was a true pretty boy. JFK blew out Nixon because of TV. didnt nixon get in because everyone hated LBJ? carter got in because people hated ford. reagan had smoothness. mondale/ferraro didnt...hence bush sr....lesser of two evils. bush sr out because we didnt like him.

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I don't doubt your point about substance - just look at how advertising has been the key decider in the past 20 years - but you make a big statement about pretty boys and fail to back it up. Your only example was a greying guy with charisma (not looks).

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it kind of works out. the sexier, smoother guy wins...especially when we hate the current regime.

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Here is the common denominator to your above statement - hatred of the incumbent.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

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Originally Posted by Chopper

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...but from a marketing/sales standpoint the Democrats just put out a flashier, nicer looking product, and that's what sells.

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this.

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You're both wrong. The dems put out a nicer looking product because it was a better product.

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it cant be because. it was nicer looking. thats all he was saying.

all we are saying is that substance doesnt matter. it doesnt get votes. FEEL and APPEAL do.

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You're right. And since these election are so steeped in BS and rhetoric, this is the correct way to vote.

My father knows everything there was to know about how bad a candidate Obama was. He was wrong on many issues but it didn't matter. Voters can be as "smart" as they want and still vote by FEEL and APPEAL.

Elections will never be a science and that's a shame. It just so happened that this time the FEEL and APPEAL candidate was the right candidate.

And I didn't vote by FEEL and APPEAL, I voted for a leader who, when not speaking sound bite rhetoric, truely spoke to me and struck accord with that part of my brain that says "Hey, this guy shows evidence of being a great leader!"

i agree with you, rill. i vote from my head, too. but, hell, i felt the tug of mccain being so stiff and poor speaking that i thought, "wow, how can this guy lead?" it was so bad, i had to keep telling MYself that "speaking is not what matters. decisions matter. getting conflicting sides to come together is what matters. speaking has nothing to do with the job." but, i knew that the general public wouldnt see it that way. oh well. it is what it is and i only have one vote (and we can argue whether it really counts some other time...lol)

thunder, America may be conservative by european standards. but, it is heading farther and farther to the left all the time. the universities, media, urbanites are all winning out slowly but surely. i am conservative by nature because i enjoy freedom (that ought to piss some people in here off). i put more of a parallel on gov't making my decisions about who and what i can and cannot do with socialism/progressivism. (i know both sides do it thanks to religious right and socialist left) and, i dont like it one bit.

but, mccain was liberal as far as republicans are concerned. so, it was rather lose/lose for my peeps anyway.

so, i lost an election. big deal. nothing gets done in this country overnight anyway. too much red tape for action. we've seen a republican congress with a republican president do squat. and, i suspect we will see the same with the democrats. you would need a larger majority than the one we just obtained to see REAL movement, imo. but, we'll see.

and, this is the transition girlfriend anyway. either one was likely "one and done." so, we'll see who people start up with in 2 more years.

in the meantime we CAN say this was a huge step for the US, racially. its good progress towards equality. (i believe that, but dont know what good it does.) and, this is the best thing for our economy (i think Warren Buffet and Bill Gates know more here than i do) and, most importantly.........poker legalization to reopen a little influx of fishies.

my opinion. dont expect it to get a lot of support. dont care either way...lol. have fun discussing.

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Originally Posted by Thunder

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Originally Posted by Chopper

how else did Bush get in over Gore

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Because people are stupid, America is predominantly Republican and verry conservative.

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Meh... not true. You forget Gore won the popular vote, but the electoral college system worked against him that time. This time, the EC worked for Obama as evidenced by the fact that he won by a far greater electoral margin than popular vote, altho' he'da won on that too.

I realize conservatism is a scale, and by many Euro standards, our "liberal" is barely to the lib side of center. But you stated "verry conservative" and that's a fallacy I hear repated over and over by outside observers who get their view of the US by what they see on TV and read on the Internet. I've already soapboxed on this before, so won't do it again.

Suffice it that if land mass was the measure of social leanings, then yes, the US would be very conservative. But it's not. And the heavy population centers (west coast, north east) are and have always been very much to the left of our political spectrum.

Also - the dems have been fighting their own demons in trying to put forward a cogent platform that moderates could connect to. They've been as much hijacked by abortion and gay marriage planks as the right has been by guns and jesus. I think they got lucky in that they were forced to focus on foreign affairs and the economy because those were the things going to hell in a planet-sized handbasket. That and an incumbent with lowest approval ratings ever (and a GOP w/ a running mate that could only have appealed to the furthest right fringe of the party...) gave 'em the boost they needed.

I wish 'em the best!

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

His pastor for 20+ years Reverend Wright you know the guy who has been recorded saying "NOT GOD BLESS AMERICA, GODDAMN AMERICA!!" and the rest of his anti america slander. What's Obama's excuse of his association with him?

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Yes, how dare Wright express anything other than complete adoration for the most great, all-powerful, moral and free country in the world! That traitorous dog should be shot for expressing anything but undying love for the Motherland!

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

His pastor for 20+ years Reverend Wright you know the guy who has been recorded saying "NOT GOD BLESS AMERICA, GODDAMN AMERICA!!" and the rest of his anti america slander. What's Obama's excuse of his association with him?

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How easily we ignore that millions of people a year come to this country for the very right to stand up and say whatever is on their mind. And how quickly we forget the hundreds of thousands that have given life and fortune for our fundamental right to do so.

Calling political free speech slander is the ultimate insult to their sacrifice.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/umed...d8a628a65c4411

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

His pastor for 20+ years Reverend Wright you know the guy who has been recorded saying "NOT GOD BLESS AMERICA, GODDAMN AMERICA!!" and the rest of his anti america slander. What's Obama's excuse of his association with him?

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LOL Fox News

Hook, line and sinker

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

His pastor for 20+ years Reverend Wright you know the guy who has been recorded saying "NOT GOD BLESS AMERICA, GODDAMN AMERICA!!" and the rest of his anti america slander. What's Obama's excuse of his association with him?

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LOL Fox News

Hook, line and sinker

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Serious post.

How can you possibly put these words together? It's just jaw-dropping.

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Originally Posted by Thunder

America is predominantly Republican and verry conservative.

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Part of the story of this election is that this is becoming less and less true. Liberal values are becoming more mainstream with shifting demographics.

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Originally Posted by Warpe

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Originally Posted by Thunder

America is predominantly Republican and verry conservative.

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Part of the story of this election is that this is becoming less and less true. Liberal values are becoming more mainstream with shifting demographics.

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eh, it's not becoming more Liberal. It's getting tired of being in the middle and having to choose from one side and the other.

Gays can't get married after all.

Interesting reading:

http://www.ourfuture.org/files/z_his...ity_report.pdf

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Originally Posted by Warpe

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Originally Posted by Thunder

America is predominantly Republican and verry conservative.

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Part of the story of this election is that this is becoming less and less true. Liberal values are becoming more mainstream with shifting demographics.

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yeah, maybe it wouldve been better for the gop long term if bush lost in either '00 or '04. then america would be like omg, kerry/gore are retards!

easier to say with hindsight though.

Warning- Ramble while at work:

The larger picture on this election that I can see, going back into the last few elections, is there are currently two very different americas; the urban america and the rural america.

Looking at the county splits across the country, almost to a T, the urban areas are Democrat and the rural areas are Republican. Also, the electoral system slants the power to the rural areas since every state must have a minimum of 3 votes, including the Dist. of Columbia. If you look at the battleground states (Florida where I am as an example), they are battleground states because they have evenly split rural and urban areas. In Florida, any legislator will tell you it is a constant fight by Miami-Dade, Broward, Jacksonville, Orlando and Tampa to keep its tax dollars and policies from favoring the rural areas.

Stereotyping for a moment and being brief to prevent boredom, let's look at the class makeup of each area (excluding manufacturer which could be in both areas):

1. Urban- Educated Professionals, middle class white collar office workers, poverty level person in need of govt. services
2. Rural- Resource and hard asset intensive owners (agriculture, oil, mining, timber), everyone else working for these owners.

Using this as a model, of course Europe would be more liberal. Europe is for the most part cosmopolitan, urban living, but in rural areas, the Republican platform is closer to the viewpoints of rural life. I would venture to guess that a farmer in a very rural area of Britian would have a similar perspective to the rural US. Taking it further, what does the life of a rural farmer or cattle rancher in Kansas have in common with a New Yorker living in Manhattan? Probably not a whole lot.

Additionally, when Bush's approval ratings come out and some people still think he is doing a good job, who are they? The second category above. If you were in the second category, you did VERY WELL under Bush. Currently, the states that supported Bush (ex, Texas, Kansas, Wyoming, Nebraska) for the most part are expanding economies, even now.

What does this mean for the future? More people are moving to urban areas and the current financial crisis has proved even to the most hard headed rural mountain man that the world is a global place. This should continue to push the US to the left, because the left is where you find urban policies that help you get along and thrive in urban life.

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Originally Posted by will641

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Originally Posted by Warpe

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Originally Posted by Thunder

America is predominantly Republican and verry conservative.

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Part of the story of this election is that this is becoming less and less true. Liberal values are becoming more mainstream with shifting demographics.

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yeah, maybe it wouldve been better for the gop long term if bush lost in either '00 or '04. then america would be like omg, kerry/gore are retards!

easier to say with hindsight though.

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Think it's safe to say we would have been better off w/o bush jr in '00 AND '04... and I was a registered republican during both of those elections.

It was kinda pathetic that the best the dems could come up with in '04 was Kerry -- who couldn't even beat one of the least popular incumbents in history.

Fox called and wants their playbook back.

By "watching different networks" I guess you mean surfing by all the others and landing on Fox. There was plenty of misinformation and exaggerations coming from both parties. Most reasonable/objective news organizations didn't give credence to Obama's affiliations with Ayers, ACORN, etc. Do some objective research

factcheck.org

LTrain, i think, philosophically, you've explained a lot. but, that still doesnt give me/us a clue as to which is better and why.

we may be trending towards the left because of urbanization, but why do we NEED to give services to the poor? why do we NEED more gov't control? cant WE make up our minds for ourselves? dont we deserve to keep more of what we earn instead of have it given away in a direction we dont support?

problem is that we have freedoms here. and, with more freedom comes greater responsibility. and, sadly, we are becoming more and more IRresponsible as a society. and, that is why we are deciding it is just easier on our brains to give the tougher decisions to the gov't. we are getting lazy/complacent as hell.

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Originally Posted by sarbox68

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Originally Posted by will641

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Originally Posted by Warpe

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Originally Posted by Thunder

America is predominantly Republican and verry conservative.

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Part of the story of this election is that this is becoming less and less true. Liberal values are becoming more mainstream with shifting demographics.

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yeah, maybe it wouldve been better for the gop long term if bush lost in either '00 or '04. then america would be like omg, kerry/gore are retards!

easier to say with hindsight though.

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Think it's safe to say we would have been better off w/o bush jr in '00 AND '04... and I was a registered republican during both of those elections.

It was kinda pathetic that the best the dems could come up with in '04 was Kerry -- who couldn't even beat one of the least popular incumbents in history.

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meh, think you are kind of missing what im saying. im not talking about the good of the nation, but of the good/reputation of the party. however, i think its not all his fault, which it seems everyone else is so fast to say. that really tilts me. like when ppl say katrina was bush's fault.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

LTrain, i think, philosophically, you've explained a lot. but, that still doesnt give me/us a clue as to which is better and why.

we may be trending towards the left because of urbanization, but why do we NEED to give services to the poor? why do we NEED more gov't control? cant WE make up our minds for ourselves? dont we deserve to keep more of what we earn instead of have it given away in a direction we dont support?

problem is that we have freedoms here. and, with more freedom comes greater responsibility. and, sadly, we are becoming more and more IRresponsible as a society. and, that is why we are deciding it is just easier on our brains to give the tougher decisions to the gov't. we are getting lazy/complacent as hell.

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Why do you need services for the poor in an urban setting? Look at England or other urban areas at the turn of the century. Most people were stealing and killing to eat while the rich couldn't freely travel for fear of being robbed, killed etc. What freedom are you talking about in this scenario? In many latin american urban areas, the poor live in shanties clinging to the side of a mountain while the rich live behind barbed wire, armed guards, decoy caravans to prevent kidnapping and helicopters to get around. Is that freedom for either side?

You give for social services to prevent this type of society. Yes, you did make up your mind to live this way by virtue of the social contract. An animal in the forest has freedom to do what they want. They also have the freedom to kill at will and starve to death. To work together so we all have a better life, you give some of that freedom to society.

The government in my eyes in modern capitalist society should be a regulator, not a creator of the product like in a communit society. I am not asking to buy government branded beef, but I do want the government overseeing the beef company to make sure the beef won't kill me. Trust the market and the company to do what is right or lose customers you say? Read "The Jungle" or look at Wall Street.

As far as keeping what we earn (the tax issue), the system gives individuals the means to accumulate wealth. The more wealth you generate, the more the system is used to generate the wealth. Therefore, individuals of greater wealth should pay more to maintain a healthy system. Without a healthy system, you have the have/have not revolution cycle described by Marx.

As far as individual responsibility, I don't necessarily disagree with you. There is an epidemic in the United States of irresponsibility and the government is becoming more of a nanny state on responsibility issues (online gambling being one of them). But that is more of a social question, not an economic one.

wp ltrain

I'll blow my need more parties horn again, when you look back and Kerry and Dole you wonder how in the world they got nominated. both parties would get a lot better if they had to (try and) get everyone's vote instead of the 10% of people who only think about them once every couple of years.

Chopper, no idea why you relate freedom to conservatism. By it's very definition it is cautious and restrictive. Just look at the UIGEA!

Sarbox, it’s not a fallacy if by our standards the USA is conservative. As long as I remwember, 3 national newspapers have dedicated page 3 to naked breasts - http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library...a_lusardi4.jpg. Can you see this happening anytime soon in America?

What you also need to consider is that via the media (UK & US), papers & now the internet, we are getting a massive influx of US culture and opinion. Even the TV shows are barometers as they will convey centre view morals at their most liberal.

excellent posting ltrain

Any society that results in the majority of people living below the poverty line and struggling is headed for trouble.

People only take being shat on for so long.

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Any society that results in the majority of people living below the poverty line and struggling is headed for trouble.

People only take being shat on for so long.

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China isn't doing too bad.

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Originally Posted by Squeaky_Midget1

Every other thread I've read here has been "Oh Obama can I suck your balls, I love you!", this is not one.
I completely agree that anyone is better that our current commander in chief. But after watching interviews and listening to phone calls on different networks I realized that 70% of voters who voted for Obama had no idea why they voted for him. It was amazing to see our country unite and come out for an extraordinary amount of voters in this election but there was also a mass of uneducated voters who really swung this election with reasoning like "I want to see the black guy win" or "because I want change". Ask those same people what changes they are looking forward to and they immediately turn into mumbling bafoons. Why? Because in the 2 years Obama has been campaigning he hasnt revealed much about his changes. HOPE!! CHANGE!! YADA YADA!! He is the absolute best at saying nothing that I've ever heard.
As for the race thing, I couldnt care less. It's amazing our kids and grandkids won't have to grow up in a society where having a black man in power is so taboo.
What worries me most is his affiliations. A phone call on C-SPAN last night had a young African-American man stating " whoever keeps talking about Obama being a terrorist is ignant" (<--see the irony)
Everyone in America should be aware of who William Aires is by now, and if you don't he was a member of the weather underground who bombed the Pentagon and openly stated he wished more people had of been killed in the twin towers. If things couldn't get worse he is a longtime associate and dear friend of our president elect. Barrack states he was only 7 when they were associated and this happened and didnt know he was a terrorist but I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Obama's political coming out party was held in the living room of who? Ding Ding Ding, William Aires. His excuse, "I didn't know!"
What else don't you know?
His pastor for 20+ years Reverend Wright you know the guy who has been recorded saying "NOT GOD BLESS AMERICA, GODDAMN AMERICA!!" and the rest of his anti america slander. What's Obama's excuse of his association with him? "bibbity bee I didnt know it was going on"
SON OF A BITCH!!
What else dont you know?
Affiliations with ACORN and voter fraud. That's right, the entire Dallas Cowboys squad was registerd to vote in Colorado. By the end of this his ACORN group will be indicted in about 26 states due to voter fraud. Why? Because Mickey Mouse is not a fucking U.S. citizen and should not be a registered Democrat voting for Obama! What did Obama say? "I didn't know"
MOTHERFUCKER GODDAMMIT!
What else don't you know?

We are dealing with Jimmy Carter Jr. here and he will recieve 1 term and he's done. In my opinion he will fuck so much shit up that in 4 years America will be begging for someone else.

So thanks to all the uneducated voters of America who couldnt take 2 hours to really read up on issues and how this election will affect our lives, jobs, and country. Because when your Almighty Obama starts taxing the shit out of businesses making 250k+ and they outsource more jobs (because face it, they are GOING to make money) leaving you broke, hungry, sitting at home in a mustard stained wife beater watching Price is Right you are going to realize this was not the "change" you wanted. You have fucked Lady America in the ass and didnt have the common courtesy to use any KY!

I hope he proves me wrong during his term but until then i am going to be living in a hole!

WELCOME TO SOCIALISM AMERICA!!!

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The Renton Law of Political/Ideological Debate: one's position loses credibility at an exponential rate as the number of spelling and grammatical errors found therein increases.

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Originally Posted by zook

wp ltrain

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i cant refute what you said. i learn by posting my own opinions and getting them flamed by the more informed. i agree with some of what you said, but a lot of it still rubs me wrong.

with a society that is going left, for whatever reasons, i feel myself fighting to stop it. not that SOME of it isnt needed. but, not the "give and inch take a mile" philosophy i see in government. i see misuse of funds given by taxation on both sides, not just the left. but, i still dont feel sorry for the poor. and, i understand throwing them a bone to "keep the peace," but i feel they receive a good bit more than any other country and they still remain poor and leech the system. they want MORE, they feel ENTITLED to receive. and, they want to punish the rich because "they have it to give." that thought sickens me.

increase minimum wage. what does that do? not much, but raise the costs of all other goods and services. in effect, i believe it keeps the poor just as poor after everything adjusts.

i think the main thing with me is how inefficient our gov't is. a lot of the incoming money falls between cracks and is paid out in interest to fund all the loans. we dont get a lot of bang for the buck. and, the answer is NOT to increase taxes. its to fix the systems. a bit pollyanna to be sure, but i dont like paying taxes...most of us don't. however, i am not saying we should pay 0%. and, i am not saying we dont owe the underprivileged something, too. i just think we give enough and i dont like our gov't always asking for more when the left is in power.

i relate conservatism to freedom MORE than liberalism. i cited that. they both take your freedoms...but, in different areas. and, i cited gambling, too (and as a conservative, that one REALLY pissed me off because it was a blatant kidnapping of my personal freedom). but, by and large the right side believes in personal choice, economically, and to keep gov't's hands off. Swigg or Warpe put that link up to read, and it states it very well. social freedoms come from the left.

but, this is why i, at the deepest levels, like our system and have faith in it. it may not sound like it, but i do. we cant have it our way ALL the time. as soon as people get tired with Dems leaning towards social and domestic matters and overspending, they will vote the GOP back in. it took a long time from the 60's, 70's, and 80's, but it happened in 1994. it may not take that long this time around. but, it will shift. it always does.

LTrain, i would love to hear more of what you have to say. its educational to say the least.

one more quick thought/opinion to be flamed...

i am 35 and still learning as i go. i am not a political guy usually, so i dont pay very close attention like i should. but, i will say a lot of you are young pups. and, thats fine. a lot of youth tends to be all about equality and sharing the wealth. thats because you dont have much (dont take offense personally, its a generalization). wait until you accumulate several hundred thousand, or a couple million, in your 401(k)'s and IRA's. then, go vote in a Democrat that wants to change the tax laws and nail you for all you've saved tax free because that was a vehicle designed to get you OFF OF THE GOV'T's dime (less dependant on social security/medicare)....and instead give it to the slouch who never saved/worked. (i understand there are special exemptions) i dont think you will enjoy explaining to your kids that they dont get as much of what you worked for, or they have to pick a different college, because the gov't thought it was better served for that money to go to that single mom with 5 kids from 4 fathers because she couldnt close her legs.

Chopper, have you ever been poor?

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Originally Posted by Thunder

Chopper, no idea why you relate freedom to conservatism. By it's very definition it is cautious and restrictive. Just look at the UIGEA!

Sarbox, it’s not a fallacy if by our standards the USA is conservative. As long as I remwember, 3 national newspapers have dedicated page 3 to naked breasts - http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library...a_lusardi4.jpg. Can you see this happening anytime soon in America?

What you also need to consider is that via the media (UK & US), papers & now the internet, we are getting a massive influx of US culture and opinion. Even the TV shows are barometers as they will convey centre view morals at their most liberal.

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Popular media (which includes television news, most general circulation newspapers, and def. popular entertainment) are a) usually cartoons of the actual norm and b) tailored for the lowest common denominator that will understand and/or tolerate them. I'm not exactly sure what boobs on page 3 (damn I DO miss the Sun....!) has to do with economic, welfare, education or a host of other issues. I get your point and will take it as hyperbole, 'cause it's a really crappy barometer. By that measure, here we're all either Master P or Howard Stern and those crazy Canadians are still obsessed with humor involving dudes in dresses... (yeah, Foley may be hosting Celebrity Poker now, but we remember his roots!)

The "left" (and the "right" for that matter...) include a wide range. I think you're calling it way too narrow IMHO -- and again, using a pretty faulty lens through which to do so. "Walk a mile in their shoes" applies more than ever... and just watching ads about shoe stores is still a very poor alternative.

Ash, i am poor...by gov't standards. i have walked a mile in their shoes. i dont feel sorry for myself or them. we all live with our choices....or should.

i work like a dog to someday enjoy better because i believe its possible. i just dont have much of a bleeding heart for the stupid/selfish poor. the ones that abuse the system.

i have a child with special needs, too. he has autism and is 7 years old. his medication is ridiculous expensive, but i am not going to lobby congress for a universal plan to help me. i own a small business and can help myself...thank you very much.

believe me i am not the uppity big house pimpin evil minded rich prick i come off like. i am also FAR from ideological perfection.

but, just because i am not rich doesnt mean i should promote poverty/gov't assistance for me or anyone else, either.

and, to remove my "man card" completely and prove my hypocrisy, one of my biggest heroins is Oprah (and i know she supported Obama). she didnt just sit there and cry to the gov't for help or start popping babies for a "pay raise." she overcame crazy obstacles to build her empire and deserves every bit of it. she also gives a shitload of it back on her own accord. she is rather liberal, and that is fine.

if more people would work like she did and stop expecting the gov't to bail them out, we would all be better off.

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Originally Posted by Chopper

i just dont have much of a bleeding heart for the stupid/selfish poor. the ones that abuse the system.

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These people are a myth. You think people like living in housing projects? They wouldn't move out in a second if they could find a better job? What a joke. Life on gov't assistance is not something anyone aspires to. Why not use your energy getting worked up over corporate welfare? Or no-bid contracts to companies like Halliburton? Much, much more of your hard-earned tax money being used for those things than for social programs for the poor.

finding a better job is not hard.

get a loan or grant...not hard when you are living in public housing/section8. dont have kids when you are 18. dont keep having kids. study in school so you will qualify for college. stop blaming your parents for their bad example. go to/back to college. show up to work and do a good job w/o complaining. hell, even QuikTrips pay decent if you are a solid employee. work your way up to management by sticking with something long enough.

or, go into business for yourself. cut grass. put on roofs. drive a truck. start a delivery company for the elderly.

of course, they dont want to live there. they would all choose a mansion if they could. but, the majority doesnt have the work ethic to become a star athlete, musician, actor. however, they dont think outside the box, either. they dont sit and think for 10 minutes about how to change their future. they are too busy trying to live for today only. it is EASIER to keep working for Applebee's washing dishes so they can clock out and grab that forty and forget about what they never got that they deserved.

and, if you dont think these people exist, you havent worked the jobs i have. and, you dont hire the people i hire.

Now who's relying on mis information & hyperbole?

The media outlets I referred to are highly regarded and engage with the people when doing their articles. The Saturday essay in the Daily Mail is a good example.

Even the lowest common denominators you talk about display social values. No one in USA is being force fed conservatism. TV panders to their best paying demographic.

You say crappy barometer but if you lived over here you wouldn't say so. This isn't like the US, where we live off bad stereotypes of nations we barely pay attention to 'cause we are so insular.

The behavior of organisms is the product of their genetics and their environment. Assuming you don't think poor people are all genetically inferior, there must be something different about their environment that makes them the way they are. You claim they're lazy, which some may be, but I know plenty of lazy people who are well-off, like me for example. I fortunately had the benefit of well-off parents and a great education. My sister teaches math to 6th through 8th graders in an inner-city school. The 8th graders are supposed to be learning alegbra, but that's a joke b/c they can't multiply 8x7. Is that their fault? Hell no. Is it their parents fault? Partly, sure. But why did their parents have kids at age 18 and keep having them? Could it have been b/c they had no education? Or b/c they had uneducated parents too? Seems likely. Had to be either genetics or environment.

I think we agree on something fundamentally, which is that anyone can thrive and succeed. But what I think you're missing is that it requires the right conditions. Mainly a loving family and good schools. Sure there are success stories of people coming from poor, uneducated backgrounds and making something of themselves (like Oprah) but the majority will be failures. You'd like to blame those people, I'd prefer to help them.

We get your movies, talk shows, debate shows, comedies, award winning dramas. We get your news (from US & UK outlets). Your race for the White House has dominated our news: your "man on the street", your columnists, your analysts. We’ve seen them on our news programmes as well as yours. And as said, we now come across Americans every day on the internet. We even meet Americans – often! 48% of tourists in Florida are British! Whether you like it or not, we are getting a good look at America, its people and its opinion every single day. No faulty lens.

Barack Obama getting elected proves once again that the United States of America is the greatest country on the planet.

and this thread has way too many words in it

It's a touchy topic... IMHO sense of entitlement is a factor. It's the reason on the west coast we see, for example, cambodian immigrants with zero family ties, education or grasp of the language (and a history of abuse that no US native can rival...) become self sufficient and beyond in less than a generation. No shortage of examples of latin american or mexican immigrants having upwardly mobile, college educated children. At what point does motivation turn to a sense of entitlement independent of self-responsibility? 3rd generation? 4th? Why do Vietnamese refugees work 18 hours a day successfully building a small business while pushing their kids to a better life while some US-born families are either unwilling or for unable (with significant comparative advantage) to do the same... and I think globally why the French consistently bring the country to a stand-still at the mere threat of anything over a 35 hour work week. There's def something to be said for an individual's perspective on what "opportunity" really is....