100NL: C-bet? (I think I should've known this by now)

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11-19-2008, 05:15 AM
jimmy44

100NL: C-bet? (I think I should've known this by now)

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($119.15)
Button ($103.50)
SB ($130.42)
BB ($100)
Hero (UTG) ($106.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
Hero raises $3.50, MP calls $3.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($8.50) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks ???

villain was 21/17/2 (was a reg).
Is this a standard C-bet? Lately, I've been trying to be more selective on my c-bets and, now, I have a difficulty playing these TPMK hands ...
Need a plan.
1. FLOP Options:
a) C-bet/fold
b) c/c
c) c/f

2. TURN Options (if we c/c FLOP)
a) If villain checks FLOP:
a1) c/c
a2) b/f
b) If villain bet FLOP I believe that the only option is c/f

On FLOP what do you do? I would prefer 1.b)
On TURN what do you do? I would prefer 2.a1)
Comments?
11-19-2008, 05:32 AM
minSim

I'd cbet this almost always. You're nog getting raised much as 2 pair is basically not in his range, nor is Axs.

A raise is 99 or a combodraw mostly. It's probably +EV to call the raise and play a turn looking to get it in on save one.

If villain calls your cbet I'd bet the turn to get value from a his draws, possibly KQ (which he might fold).

If villain calls turn as well, we'll have to play a river and I'm not very sure how to. It likely depends a lot on the board. I likely c/f or c/c based on his river betsizing.

Als note that sometimes you'll be betting into his AQ/AJ, but w.e. it doesn't make up that big a part of his range.
11-19-2008, 05:34 AM
WillburForce

the way i see it (I play $50nl) - if you're gonna raise with A-10s from UTG and an Ace hits on the flop, you've got to c-bet.

Alot of the time I'd expect a fold.

If he's semi decent, he's gonna raise your C-Bet , so I'd prob flat a raise and fire again on the turn. Fold to another re-raise. If called try and check it out.

Am I completly wrong here?
11-19-2008, 05:44 AM
Da GOAT

just bet
11-19-2008, 06:30 AM
Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

If he's semi decent, he's gonna raise your C-Bet

what?

why?
11-19-2008, 07:53 AM
a500lbgorilla

lots of leaks ITT
11-19-2008, 08:22 AM
jimmy44

I guess this is a standard c-bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

lots of leaks ITT

What do you mean by ITT?
11-19-2008, 08:58 AM
sil693

in this thread?
11-19-2008, 09:28 AM
WillburForce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

If he's semi decent, he's gonna raise your C-Bet

what?

why?

This is the kind of spot I re-raise people. Very drawy board.

Its a horrible flop to play OOP, and I would think most good players know this.

Re-raising a C-bet here you'll get a lot folds (just like OP would fold to a re-raise with his A-10).

Just what I think (tell me if I'm way off) and would prob do if I'd called with 8-9s or K-Qs etc.
11-19-2008, 10:00 AM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

the way i see it (I play $50nl) - if you're gonna raise with A-10s from UTG and an Ace hits on the flop, you've got to c-bet.

i agree with this part atleast.
11-19-2008, 10:22 AM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

the way i see it (I play $50nl) - if you're gonna raise with A-10s from UTG and an Ace hits on the flop, you've got to c-bet.

i agree with this part atleast.

eh, if you're going to raise ATs it's to play it optimally. If caller doesn't defend light and the flop comes down A92 rainbow-road, I think it'd be a poor cbet.

ITT means in this thread.
11-19-2008, 10:27 AM
a500lbgorilla

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...=2#Post8313278
11-19-2008, 10:31 AM
jimmy44

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

the way i see it (I play $50nl) - if you're gonna raise with A-10s from UTG and an Ace hits on the flop, you've got to c-bet.

i agree with this part atleast.

eh, if you're going to raise ATs it's to play it optimally. If caller doesn't defend light and the flop comes down A92 rainbow-road, I think it'd be a poor cbet.

ITT means in this thread.

This was the reason I believed that c/c flop might be better.
11-19-2008, 10:34 AM
a500lbgorilla

I think it's pretty close between bet and c/call, not nearly as slamdunk bet as FTR wisdom seems to suggest.
11-19-2008, 10:57 AM
bigspenda73

I might try and c/c a different Ace-high flop texture, but not this one.
11-19-2008, 11:17 AM
WillburForce

This seems pretty standard.

We raise A-10s UTG, Flop comes with an A, with a flush draw showing and also a K showing.

What else you gonna do but C-bet? :?
11-19-2008, 12:52 PM
XTR1000

So many draws to charge, bet this flop.

And for our UTG range this is a nut flop on which I dont expect many players to spazz out.
11-19-2008, 01:12 PM
nutsinho

OP, why are you so eager to fold this hand somehow? It's not bad to either check or bet this flop, but you are ahead like almost 90% of the time.

Willbur, you are a crazy person. Can you explain your first statement more? You're just asserting something pretty random with no logical explanation.
Also, this is a terrible flop on which to raise an UTG raiser's cbet. You can only credibly represent one made stackoff hand, 99, while the UTG player has many strong hands in his range. If utg1 is semidecent, we expect him to not raise much at all, because he will balance his marginal hands by slowplaying sets and big draws expecting to get double barreled a lot.
11-19-2008, 01:22 PM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I might try and c/c a different Ace-high flop texture, but not this one.

This. i dont mind c/c some if this were a dry Ace high board, but this is far from dry.
11-19-2008, 01:31 PM
griffey24

As far as I'm concerned, this board hits my perceived UTG opening range sooooo hard, and way way harder than it hits MP's range.

I'm cont betting here almost always, and if called, MP is getting tripled on any non heart turn/river. If he calls down and shows AJ/AQ, I write a note on villain that he'll call down triples with one pair vs my UTG open, and stack him next time.

(edit: note: I probably spew barrel more than I should, but I don't mind it in this spot. Its not an easy call down for villain at all)
11-19-2008, 02:10 PM
jimmy44

Thanks for the very valuable input guys!
I'm starting to understand part of my nittiness ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

OP, why are you so eager to fold this hand somehow? It's not bad to either check or bet this flop, but you are ahead like almost 90% of the time.

OMG, you're really good. After reading this sentence I remember that during the hand I think somehow I thought about this!

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

I'm cont betting here almost always, and if called, MP is getting tripled on any non heart turn/river. If he calls down and shows AJ/AQ, I write a note on villain that he'll call down triples with one pair vs my UTG open, and stack him next time.

It's a very interesting line indeed. Thanks!
11-19-2008, 07:08 PM
bjsaust

I value bet this flop. A lot of people dont like to fold.
11-19-2008, 08:42 PM
WillburForce

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

OP, why are you so eager to fold this hand somehow? It's not bad to either check or bet this flop, but you are ahead like almost 90% of the time.

Willbur, you are a crazy person. Can you explain your first statement more? You're just asserting something pretty random with no logical explanation.
Also, this is a terrible flop on which to raise an UTG raiser's cbet. You can only credibly represent one made stackoff hand, 99, while the UTG player has many strong hands in his range. If utg1 is semidecent, we expect him to not raise much at all, because he will balance his marginal hands by slowplaying sets and big draws expecting to get double barreled a lot.

hehehe....

I'm just finding, and prob not explaining very well, that flatting re-raises (and this is relating to my first post), you can then raise again and represent real strength. and get people to fold better holdings

I'm more than happy to be told I'm way off the mark, but I was trying to say, you c-bet (and this is related to OP hand), and then I'd flat a re-raise and raise again. I'm just seeing at $50nl, people betting into draw heavy flops to push you off.

does this make sense...?