Hero call AI preflop with JJ, spew?

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11-24-2008, 12:59 PM
Parasurama

Hero call AI preflop with JJ, spew?

I have never seen villain before, he was 1-tabling and had doubled his stack before I got to the table. It was my first orbit at the table and I had raised and taken down the last 5 pots (coincidentally having good hands) either preflop or on the flop with a c-bet. Villain had been involved in 4/5 of those pots. Villain pushed instantly after the action came to him.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($109.60)
Button ($37)
SB ($183.10)
BB ($56.20)
UTG ($62.40)
UTG+1 ($202.80)
Hero (MP2) ($123.55)
MP3 ($20)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $3.50, Hero raises to $10.50, 5 folds, UTG+1 raises to $202.80 (All-In), Hero calls $113.05 (All-In)

Total pot: $248.60 | Rake: $3

The push was just so fast that I couldn't imagine it being any other hand than AK thinking "omg I have AK must maximize fold equity." Given my table image and the timing and size of villain's bet, is my call correct or is it better to just fold and wait for a better spot? Does this decision really depend on how large your bankroll is and how much you want to push small edges?

This is the best (having the best hands) range for villain that I have >50% against, but I think that it's just {AKs,AKo,AhAd}, which I'm nearly 54% against

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.761% 49.56% 00.21% 96734514 401034.00 { AdAh, AhAs, KdKh, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 50.239% 50.03% 00.21% 97666074 401034.00 { JJ }
11-24-2008, 01:10 PM
pgil

not sure how you can narrow it down to AdAh, AhAs, and not the other AA combinations, same for KK. with full combos of AA/KK/AKs/AKo you are a 60/40 dog.
11-24-2008, 01:19 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgil

not sure how you can narrow it down to AdAh, AhAs, and not the other AA combinations, same for KK. with full combos of AA/KK/AKs/AKo you are a 60/40 dog.

The idea is that OP is discounting the times he has AA or KK. My opinion is that this is discounting those hands too much and that this is likely a fold. Related to that, I think that just calling the open is better.
11-24-2008, 01:32 PM
Miffed22001

based on recently history i can see why you would 3bet then call a push and think its good - my biggest concern is people play their cards in these games and dont notice image so probably not so good.
on the flip side, with your image, call the opener flop a set and take a stack - they arent folding if you get aggressive, and i cant see this opp never folding AA.

Tough call, i wouldnt normally 3bet UTG+1 openers with JJ unless i had a good reason
11-24-2008, 01:41 PM
pokerfan

fold, not even close. Its still a fold even if you are in BVB situations. Please reevaluate your preflop equity vs QQ+, AK. Only when villain 4 bet shove with TT+, AQ+ can you call with JJ profitably IMO.
11-24-2008, 02:36 PM
badgers

You got leveled imo.
11-24-2008, 02:43 PM
Deanglow

flat preflop
11-24-2008, 11:14 PM
daven

Re: Hero call AI preflop with JJ, spew?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parasurama

\ It was my first orbit at the table and I had raised and taken down the last 5 pots (coincidentally having good hands) either preflop or on the flop with a c-bet. Villain had been involved in 4/5 of those pots. Villain pushed instantly after the action came to him.

Remember to act with a plan. You should already know what your response to various actions will be before you 3-bet.

Your read is that villain is passive pre-flop - calling 4 times in one orbit. Read also shows that villain knows where the fold button is... This makes the pre-flop 3-bet marginal, especially from MP.

AK/TT/ATC may fall into villain's 4-bet range here, but based on stated reads i would snapfold.
11-24-2008, 11:55 PM
Parasurama

Re: Hero call AI preflop with JJ, spew?

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parasurama

\ It was my first orbit at the table and I had raised and taken down the last 5 pots (coincidentally having good hands) either preflop or on the flop with a c-bet. Villain had been involved in 4/5 of those pots. Villain pushed instantly after the action came to him.

Remember to act with a plan. You should already know what your response to various actions will be before you 3-bet.

Your read is that villain is passive pre-flop - calling 4 times in one orbit. Read also shows that villain knows where the fold button is... This makes the pre-flop 3-bet marginal, especially from MP.

AK/TT/ATC may fall into villain's 4-bet range here, but based on stated reads i would snapfold.

I should have a plan for people raising 200BB on a 10BB 3-bet? Also, I had raised the last five hands and villain had called preflop and folded flop three times. The other time villain played was when I 3-bet him and he folded.

Regardless, I think you guys are right. His play was just so terrible here that I didn't want to let it go unpunished, sort of like when I auto-raise min donkbets with ATC(does anyone else do this?). I flat this pre nearly all of the time because I love playing JJ in position but I don't think you should play it the same way every time.

Badgers, if he has AA is he leveling me or playing just the right amount of shitty? Funny thing is, you can't tell against an unknown.

Results:
Villain had A:club:K:club: against my J:heart:J:spade:, flop was K:spade:9:spade:Q:spade: turn was the beautiful T:heart: river was the 5:diamond: I was the favorite on every street.

EDIT: I don't think he has QQ here, ever.
11-25-2008, 12:12 AM
Deanglow

stop calling his play shitty; it was decent.

You made two wrong decisions, he made 1/2 a bad play
11-25-2008, 12:47 AM
bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deanglow

flat preflop

this

also, how can you hate on his play when he almost got you to fold JJ and frankly you're a hudge dog to his range, which, in my mind is like:

KK+,AKs,QQ(50%)
11-25-2008, 12:49 AM
bigspenda73

Re: Hero call AI preflop with JJ, spew?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parasurama

I was the favorite on every street.

also, you say favorite like being a 52-48 fav. means something when he's at the absolute bottom of his range.
11-25-2008, 01:30 AM
nutsinho

meh i agree with OP's range more so than others' but definitely flat preflop as your standard
11-25-2008, 01:41 AM
Parasurama

I didn't say "I was ahead every street" like it meant anything, just interesting since I thought I'd be a slight dog on the flop. I think the play would have been good had he had AA but doing it with AKs is just so transparent to me. I really don't think 3-betting pre can be considered a "bad" play, just non-standard. Calling AI is bad I've already agreed.
11-25-2008, 12:25 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

based on recently history i can see why you would 3bet then call a push and think its good - my biggest concern is people play their cards in these games and dont notice image so probably not so good.

there still exists a level of game flow. It might be him shoving AA because he thinks you'll call based on history, or he might shove AQs because he thinks it's an alright hand to get all in vrs you. They might only think about hands, but circumstances still have a level of affect on his decision.
11-27-2008, 01:24 AM
cremson687

It is a good read by you and a good play by him as well. With you raising the last 5 hands he was probably putting you on a wide range so, he sees it as i'll raise an insane amount that if he doesn't have a hand he will fold or at worst i have a top 3 hand. You have to make that call once you put him on making a play to get you fold on principal.

On the other side the table had been folding to you so you have to figure if u make this call he is going 2 have at least 1 over if not 2. I don't like racing for all my chips in a cash game but you always gotta go with your reads.