$6.50 SB v BB line check

Too loose was my read on Opp, which does not help here

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6.00+$0.50 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (t955)
CO (t2285)
Button (t1920)
SB (t2040)
Hero (BB) (t2900)
UTG (t2185)
MP1 (t1215)

Hero's M: 12.89

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
5 folds, SB calls t75, Hero checks

Flop: (t300) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t200, SB calls t200

Turn: (t700) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (t700) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets t600, Hero folds

Total pot: t700

seems ok to me

Seems fine, I play it the same. If he bet a little less (say 1/2 pot or less) on the river I would be tempted to call.

loose Villian limped preflop, called your flop bet and checked the turn, which is double suited with potential draws, I dont think villian has you beat at this spot, if he had TP or better (unless he flopped a str) he would have either bet flop, c-r flop or bet turn, the only way you are behind IMO is if he hit his king (which he may bet the turn with) or he has 9 with a better kicker, however I think that most likely he has some piece of the flop (FD, gutshot str8 draw or a 6) and you still have the best hand, I would fire again on the turn for about 500.

As played you need to fold river, 6 is definitly in his range, he may have backdoored a flush and if he has a 9 your a splitting it

Betting the turn looks bad, if only because we largely inflate the pot with a small pot hand

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Originally Posted by gingerwizard

Betting the turn looks bad, if only because we largely inflate the pot with a small pot hand

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A lot of times betting the turn will get him to fold and end this hand

I would have played it the same. I like the turn check, and the river fold. If he bets less on the river, say 200-300, I probably making a crying call and regret it. But I think you have to be confident with your shove/fold game that the keeping the extra $600 is just worth it.

I'm with TLR, bet/fold turn. I don't understand your logic, why is it a big pot hand on the flop but a small pot hand on the turn? Your line inflates the pot then gives him a nice price to take two cards off to beat you.

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

I'm with TLR, bet/fold turn. I don't understand your logic, why is it a big pot hand on the flop but a small pot hand on the turn? Your line inflates the pot then gives him a nice price to take two cards off to beat you.

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I don't think it's a big pot hand on the flop. The reason I check behind on the turn is that once opp calls the bet I'm worried that I'm beat and I want to keep the pot small. I'd call up to a half pot bet on the river; I think that checking behind on the turn allows us to show this hand down as cheaply as possible. If we b/f turn we use the same chips and might not even get to show down

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Originally Posted by taipan168

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Originally Posted by drmcboy

I'm with TLR, bet/fold turn. I don't understand your logic, why is it a big pot hand on the flop but a small pot hand on the turn? Your line inflates the pot then gives him a nice price to take two cards off to beat you.

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I don't think it's a big pot hand on the flop. The reason I check behind on the turn is that once opp calls the bet I'm worried that I'm beat and I want to keep the pot small. I'd call up to a half pot bet on the river; I think that checking behind on the turn allows us to show this hand down as cheaply as possible. If we b/f turn we use the same chips and might not even get to show down

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Why do you think you are beat on the turn given villian's actions so far

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Originally Posted by TLR

Why do you think you are beat on the turn given villian's actions so far

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I do not necessarily think I am beat, but I want to keep the pot smaller so I can call a river bet and show my hand down

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Originally Posted by taipan168

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Originally Posted by TLR

Why do you think you are beat on the turn given villian's actions so far

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I do not necessarily think I am beat, but I want to keep the pot smaller so I can call a river bet and show my hand down

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I understand this logic, however I think in this case (you are likely ahead but opp has some piece of the flop) and given the board structure and the read on the opponent

1. You give villain a free card to beat you
2. If he is indeed too loose you can extract more money on the turn

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Originally Posted by TLR

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Originally Posted by taipan168

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Originally Posted by TLR

Why do you think you are beat on the turn given villian's actions so far

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I do not necessarily think I am beat, but I want to keep the pot smaller so I can call a river bet and show my hand down

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I understand this logic, however I think in this case (you are likely ahead but opp has some piece of the flop) and given the board structure and the read on the opponent

1. You give villain a free card to beat you
2. If he is indeed too loose you can extract more money on the turn

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I agree with both of your points, but betting again can put us into a difficult position on the river because the pot is so big. A reasonable turn bet is going to be 350-400, if opp calls the bet again then the pot will be 1400-1500 on the river, so if opp then bets 500 we pretty much have to call due to pot odds but have lost a lot more chips than just checking behind on the turn and calling the river bet.

To take your side of the debate for one second, I think another advantage of betting the turn is that we will fold out some hands that beat us

Hands like what. He ain't folding a T ever in a $6.50, and there are plenty of crap tens in his range.

It is never a big pot hand. I bet flop because I have a piece of it and position. The call is strange and could be a wide range but I'm perhaps ahead. The turn puts another overcard on, but it's pretty irrelevant. The pot is getting large, I don't want it bigger by the river as I plan to call a 1/2 pot sized river bet unless the FD comes in, and I don't think he folds anything here unless it is total junk I'm already beating.

A bet on the turn will bust me out of a lot of SNGs having to call river bets with pot odds.

Or....
I raise him pre-flop to 450 and take the blinds.
He then has to play a raised pot out of position if he wants to continue and I'm the captain.
Not about my cards here it's about position and him showing weakness with the call.

I'd feel fine folding most rivers if we bet the turn and get called. We get value out of draws/6s on the turn. Your line

1) only gets value from bluffs and you have given us no reason to believe he'll bluff. You have given a reason ("Loose") to think he'll call with a worse hand on the turn.

2) gives a free card to all the hands you are hoping he has

3) makes it a much cheaper & easier bluff for him

4) costs the same, I'd bet half the pot on the turn

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Originally Posted by Wikkiwikki

Or....
I raise him pre-flop to 450 and take the blinds.
He then has to play a raised pot out of position if he wants to continue and I'm the captain.
Not about my cards here it's about position and him showing weakness with the call.

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This is really bad for a couple of reasons.

1. You have a nice hand to see a flop in position with, if you're going to turn your hand into a complete bluff better to do it with a crappy hand like 73o, that you don't mind if he limp-shoves. Bad players do this all the time they limp and get pissed off that you raised their limp so they go all-in. Just see a flop with the 98o.

2. Stacks are bad for raising to 450. just raise to like 350 or 375 if you feel the need to raise.

Edit: as for the hand it seems just fine played.

really bad??? maybe
Floating a flop in position with 9-8o that your not going to connect with 60% of the time doesn't sound like fun to me, i think you can get into trouble there.(hence the post on how to play this post flop when connecting with middle pair)
My raise ends the hand right there picking up the blinds a huge % of the time. probably 75-80%(it only has to win 60% though to break even) If he shoves over i can fold - he's not shoving with a hand weaker than 8-9o
If he calls hes got a big hand and i need to hit the flop hard to continue.
What kind of hand do you call raises out of position with? (Big ones)

To boot his read is he's a loose player, he could be limping anything.

It's not the hand that matters here. 7-3o A-Q 9-8 I make the same move.

Maybe you could get away with betting less than 450. 400 375 whatever i don't think that makes the difference in the play but it might be slightly better.

Am i completely full of crap here???? because this is how i normally play it.

Floating is not checking your BB.

It is particularly important in SNGs to conserve your stack for when it is most useful. Making moves in a BvB situation at 75/150 blinds with a reasonable stack ignores this.

If you play only one table at a time or even 2 or 3 then what you suggest may be ok if you feel it works for you. Playing more tables I find my $$ per hour better and my decisions easier if I only raise big hands until the short stack play begins. I then rely on my opponents to make mistakes.

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Floating a flop in position with 9-8o that your not going to connect with 60% of the time doesn't sound like fun to me, i think you can get into trouble there.(hence the post on how to play this post flop when connecting with middle pair)

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Maybe learn to play better postflop then? Seeing a flop with 98o vs a terrible player limping a ton of hands sounds like a lot of fun to me. Who cares if you miss 60% of the time, a lot of times you can bet the flop or the turn when he checks to you and win the pot anyway.

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If he shoves over i can fold

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This a bad thing when you have a hand that could have stacked him with on a lot of flops. You don't want to fold it. Plus as another poster mentioned, it's very important to preserve your stack, losing those 450 chips wouldn't be a good thing at all.

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It's not the hand that matters here. 7-3o A-Q 9-8 I make the same move.

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Your hand does matter! 98 is a hand that is going to be pretty happy on a lot of flops. 73 won't like hardly any flops. If you raise 73 and get shoved over, no big deal because your hand was terrible anyway. If you raise 98 and get shoved over, you're going to feel bad that you didn't get to see a flop with a hand that plays pretty well post-flop.

Betting the turn is a bit high variance, but I like it too. There are just so many river cards that you are going to hate and will have to fold to a bet that I think making him fold his draws here is probably best. I doubt he has many Ts in his range but you have a reasonable chance of making at least some of them fold, and if he folds some Ts, he'll obv. also fold some better 9s. I doubt you'll get value from many 6s or worse 9s though, and in any case, you can't have it both ways: you mostly want a fold here.

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Originally Posted by Wikkiwikki

To boot his read is he's a loose player, he could be limping anything.

It's not the hand that matters here. 7-3o A-Q 9-8 I make the same move.

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Others have already explained why raising is really bad but I wanted to comment on this. If he's a loose player he can also call with anything. A tight player might limp/fold something like K9 but against a loose player, he's going to call too much and you'll be creating a big pot with a mediocre hand. This might be a good player in a cash game but chip preservation is crucial here.

I think this is played well enough. You could raise the turn though, they both are good enough. As played, fold on river is correct, and if he called the turn you'd have to c/f river to.