Flatting AA vs tight squeezer

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02-05-2009, 05:10 PM
Silly String

Flatting AA vs tight squeezer

CO is a 12/9 Nit over 60 hands that doesn't steal much, doesn't 3bet, isn't too aggro, hell I don't even know why he plays. I probably wouldn't even notice him if it wasn't for the 3bet.
MP is a 29/14/1 with 6% 3bet over 40 hands - typical fish.

I felt durty flatting here to a squeeze, but he kinda helped prevent set odds with his large 3bet. Does anyone else flat here as 4balling UTG seems to chase away half of his hands that will pay me?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($71.65)
BB ($59.30)
Hero (UTG) ($52.10)
MP ($40)
CO ($52.30)
Button ($67.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
Hero raises $1.50, MP calls $1.50, CO raises $6.75, 3 folds, Hero calls $5.25, MP calls $5.25

Flop: ($21) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks,
02-05-2009, 05:27 PM
WildBobAA

I like it
02-05-2009, 08:25 PM
meeloche

Fine by me.
02-05-2009, 08:34 PM
bjsaust

Why? You're read is he's tight and almost never 3-bets, so whats he got that he wont get ai pre with?

I mean, its not bad, I just dunno why theres a reason to get fancy here.
02-05-2009, 08:35 PM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Why? You're read is he's tight and almost never 3-bets, so whats he got that he wont get ai pre with?

I mean, its not bad, I just dunno why theres a reason to get fancy here.
02-05-2009, 08:47 PM
ATOTHEC101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Why? You're read is he's tight and almost never 3-bets, so whats he got that he wont get ai pre with?

I mean, its not bad, I just dunno why theres a reason to get fancy here.
02-06-2009, 09:53 AM
Silly String

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Why? You're read is he's tight and almost never 3-bets, so whats he got that he wont get ai pre with?

TT-JJ, AK, and half of his QQs is my estimate of what he'll fold to my UTG 4bet. That leaves AA(1), KK(6) & QQ(3) or 10 hands. I am giving up money from discounted TT(3), JJ(6), QQ(3), AK(8), 20 hands plus a couple "I've lost my mind" squeeze bluffs.
My image is sTag & very positionally aware much like most of FTR.
02-06-2009, 06:56 PM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly String

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Why? You're read is he's tight and almost never 3-bets, so whats he got that he wont get ai pre with?

TT-JJ, AK, and half of his QQs is my estimate of what he'll fold to my UTG 4bet. That leaves AA(1), KK(6) & QQ(3) or 10 hands. I am giving up money from discounted TT(3), JJ(6), QQ(3), AK(8), 20 hands plus a couple "I've lost my mind" squeeze bluffs.
My image is sTag & very positionally aware much like most of FTR.

I don't think that many ppl are in the business of 3betting value hands vs UTG with the intention of folding to 4bets. But I could be mistaken....

I would be very surprised to see a nit 3bet TT or JJ vs an utg open really.

Given his nittiness, I'm not getting fancy and getting it in with a 4bet. If he was more of an aggro squeezer this would be much better.
02-06-2009, 08:32 PM
meeloche

I just don't think you lose a ton of value vs his squeezing range which is air tight by seeing a flop. 4 betting and getting it in is not going to be bad, but neither is seeing a flop and trying to stack a least 1 if not both.
02-07-2009, 03:06 AM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

I just don't think you lose a ton of value vs his squeezing range which is air tight by seeing a flop. 4 betting and getting it in is not going to be bad, but neither is seeing a flop and trying to stack a least 1 if not both.

He could have KK and be afraid of an A on the flop, QQ is afraid of an A or a K. And AK, which has the most combos, doesn't give you his stack without hitting. All these hands will put all the money in quite easily pre however.
02-07-2009, 10:29 AM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

I just don't think you lose a ton of value vs his squeezing range which is air tight by seeing a flop. 4 betting and getting it in is not going to be bad, but neither is seeing a flop and trying to stack a least 1 if not both.

He could have KK and be afraid of an A on the flop, QQ is afraid of an A or a K. And AK, which has the most combos, doesn't give you his stack without hitting. All these hands will put all the money in quite easily pre however.

i think gala hit it on the head here. There are just too many flops that will slow a nit villain like this down to not get it in pre.
02-07-2009, 10:50 AM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

He could have KK and be afraid of an A on the flop, QQ is afraid of an A or a K. And AK, which has the most combos, doesn't give you his stack without hitting. All these hands will put all the money in quite easily pre however.
02-07-2009, 10:54 AM
Silly String

I see your points, but I just didn't feel the nit is going to play for stacks with AK here vs my 4bet. The collective wisdom of the board leans toward 4 betting and I guess that is better as the tight squeezer is likely to not folding. Allowing the other guy in for a discount isn't great either.

G, as for overcards on the flop, I'm not terribly concerned as I hold 2 Aces, but your point is valid and likely tips the scales toward 4betting.

Thanks everyone.
02-07-2009, 11:21 AM
nutsinho

you are 100bb deep, you are an insane person if you think hes squeezing AK or any other value hand to fold to a 4bet. He probably flats TT and possibly JJ to your open. Not 4betting here is fucking terrible, everyone.
02-07-2009, 11:25 AM
will641

yeah vs a really tight person there when he squeezes in the craziest spot to squeeze people i really think we can get it in PF like 90% of the time, so why not just do that? also he could have AK that won't pair as often and therefore wont felt. i think the only reason i would flat here is if the MP is a monster fish, and even then i might not because im almost guaranteed CO's stack.
02-07-2009, 12:41 PM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

you are 100bb deep, you are an insane person if you think hes squeezing AK or any other value hand to fold to a 4bet. He probably flats TT and possibly JJ to your open. Not 4betting here is fucking terrible, everyone.

I don't know, man. This guy is a 50NL nit who plays 12/9, it might be a mistake to assume he has a plan when he 3bets. If he has QQ or AK and gets 4bet, he might be gripped by a feeling of terror and he'll tank and fold.

I'd still 4bet though for sure, this guy might not even cbet with AK when he misses.
02-07-2009, 12:47 PM
Da GOAT

im with nuts but sometimes id wonder that if MP is a fish im tempted to call. thougths?
02-07-2009, 12:48 PM
Da GOAT

im with nuts but sometimes id wonder that if MP is a fish im tempted to call. thougths?
02-07-2009, 01:16 PM
Alexos

we know he has a strong range for squeezing here, so i think 4betting here and hope he makes a mistake (it is a mistake if HE gets it in here with TT unless ur a monkey) is the superior play.

I can't find a good reason to not 4bet. We'll be OOP the entire hand, scare cards could come on the flop, there is a loose passive player to act after us, are all reasons why you should 4bet.
02-07-2009, 01:43 PM
nutsinho

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

you are 100bb deep, you are an insane person if you think hes squeezing AK or any other value hand to fold to a 4bet. He probably flats TT and possibly JJ to your open. Not 4betting here is fucking terrible, everyone.

I don't know, man. This guy is a 50NL nit who plays 12/9, it might be a mistake to assume he has a plan when he 3bets. If he has QQ or AK and gets 4bet, he might be gripped by a feeling of terror and he'll tank and fold.

I'd still 4bet though for sure, this guy might not even cbet with AK when he misses.

whats it matter if he has a plan? show me a hand where someone 3bet AK and then folded with 100bb eff. against one opponent in a shorthanded game. it would never ever happen unless 4bettor is biggest drooling nitbot of all time.
02-07-2009, 06:50 PM
Marshall28

He is 12/9, nuts. Try to figure out how someone like that thinks. Not saying I disagree about 4betting, just saying people definitely 3bet AK and fold for 100bb. I know I've done it before.
02-07-2009, 09:25 PM
nutsinho

show me a hand where u folded AK for 100bb against only one opponent playing back after squeezing. with your image that would certainly rank among the worst plays ive ever seen.