ITT you berate me for wanting to fold queens full.

Villain is 17/9 with 2% 3bet over 500 hands. I have no notes and haven't got into any interesting spots with him before. The MP player is a 40/10 fish.

$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($519.70)
UTG+1 ($406.00)
MP1 ($377.00)
MP2 ($895.40)
MP3 ($428.10)
CO ($470.10)
BTN ($400.00)
SB ($414.70)
BB ($400.00)

Pre-flop: ($6, 9 players) Hero is UTG :qs: :qh:
Hero raises to $16, 3 folds, MP3 calls $16, 3 folds, BB raises to $56, Hero calls $40, MP3 folds

Flop: :9s: :ad: :qc: ($130, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $44, BB calls $44

Turn: :6s: ($218, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $64, BB calls $64

River: :6d: ($346, 2 players)
BB goes all-in $236,

I considered checking the turn but I wanted to maximise value from AK. It just seems realllly weird for AK to shove the river... IDK, berate me please.

its not fistpump but lol @ folding

call 236 to win 580... AA def not only possible hand... easy easy easy call

sick - wouldnt make the fold ta the table but looking at the HH afterwards in analysis my 1st comment would be 'pwned'
Id fold.
Fwiw, think the turn bet is nicely sized allowing AK to block or c/c river

What are you folding to? AA? I think he would have raised on the turn if this was the case. EASY call.

Noobie questions:
1. If he is 3 betting 2% what range does that include?

2. Does his 3 bet from out of position against a UTG raiser make his range even smaller?

Unless he is going crazy with AK or KK, I don't really see how he can have anything besides AA. When someone 3 bets and then checks the ace high flop it seems suspicious.

When i read the thread title I was guessing I would see a KKxxx or AAxxx board and a tough spot. I don't see that here, so as asked:

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING CONSIDERING FOLDING

I don't think we can sit around and worry about set over set coolers in 3b pots. Lots of folks will play AK this way and its more likely to be AK... though I can see an argument for "why would he play AK here like this when there isn't a lot of Ax in your 3b call range he beats that stacks" meh, stack and move on



daniel: Google "Poker Stove" which can give you the info you are looking for hand ranges.

open program, click a playter, click preflop and adjust the % slider or input a % to display, obv its adjustable and ppls ranges can slightly differ

Agreed you see aa a certain % of the time, yet you can never ever be folding qq here.

I already talked to you about this badgers. Like I said, there is no way I would be folding this during the table. However, given his 2% 3bet, and the line he took I expect to see AA here a lot more often than AK. And I really wouldn't think AQ would be in his range all that often.

Based on pot odds, you need 29% equity to have a break-even call. There are 3 combos of AA, and 12 combos of AK. If he does this with even 1/6 of the AK combos (2 combos), then this is a profitable call (40% equity).

Conclusion: I can't fold here. You will see AA more often than AK though imo. This is a weird line for AK I believe.

Guys, badgers came here with a legitimate hand. Saying LOL NOOB EASY CALL is stupid, immature, and shows your blatant lack of understanding for the game. Truth is villain has AA like 80% of the time (probably closer to 90%) but we have to call just because

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

Guys, badgers came here with a legitimate hand. Saying LOL NOOB EASY CALL is stupid, immature, and shows your blatant lack of understand for the game. Truth is villain has AA like 80% of the time (probably closer to 90%) but we have to call just because

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This.

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Originally Posted by Bbickes

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

Guys, badgers came here with a legitimate hand. Saying LOL NOOB EASY CALL is stupid, immature, and shows your blatant lack of understand for the game. Truth is villain has AA like 80% of the time (probably closer to 90%) but we have to call just because

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This.

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agreed. With deanglow. Bbickes is just stupid.

Also for whoever said that villain checking the flop is suspicion and points towards AA. While I def agree AA would do that, but I would check AK on the flop as well if I were villain. Badgers isn't calling villains 3bet OOP lightly, so I don't see much value in betting AK on this flop against badgers. And if I'm villain I'm likely not seeing a river here with AK, and folding somewhere sooner.

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

And if I'm villain I'm likely not seeing a river here with AK, and folding somewhere sooner.

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I dont know about this, our preflop range is almost exclusively JJ+ and AK, maybe just QQ+ to AK given this monster reraise size; and FWIW we're never getting to the river like this with KK. With that our AK: QQ/AA range is 4:3 and folding at any previous time seems not great.

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

Truth is villain has AA like 80% of the time (probably closer to 90%) but we have to call just because

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what the hell kind of advice is this?

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

And if I'm villain I'm likely not seeing a river here with AK, and folding somewhere sooner.

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I dont know about this, our preflop range is almost exclusively JJ+ and AK, maybe just QQ+ to AK given this monster reraise size; and FWIW we're never getting to the river like this with KK. With that our AK: QQ/AA range is 4:3 and folding at any previous time seems not great.

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idk.. I may be totally off in this situation. However, this is how I see things.

First off, here's a few assumptions. Villain is obviously not squeezing light here (and if I were villain I wouldn't be either [OOP against UTG range.. self-explanatory]). Badgers, given the above, is not calling light (especially against this particular villain, but probably not against most anyways).

So given the above, I would put villain range on something like QQ+, AK (not sure what he would do with JJ, or what I would do tbh). And I put badgers range on the same (maybe wider if he has odds to sethunt). Well on this flop, if I'm villain I wouldn't see much value in c-betting AK, KK. So I think it really makes villains range transparent here if he cbets, so if I'm villain I'm checking this flop like 100%.

As badgers, I would also think cbetting this flop would be bad with AK, KK. And therefore, feel the same that if I cbet here it's pretty transparent towards AA, QQ. So I'd probably check back my entire range on this flop.

I mean if you check this flop as villain and badgers bets, what are you hoping to accomplish with a call if you have AK. I would really be hardpressed to find a hand that gets to this flop here that AK is ahead of and that bets, without history. I'm inclined to c/f the flop with AK, and almost certainly the turn in this spot. Is that wrong?

idk. This is just a weird spot imo. Like even if we check flop we are still in the same predicament on the turn. So it seems kinda bad to be checking our nut hands.

(Bad) Regs love to turn their hands into bluff when checked to so I'm not folding KK to one bet in this pot. If I had AK here I'm most certainly betting this flop when checked to and Badgers picked a good size because we can get 1 small street of value from KK.

BTW, I don't even think he has AK in his range preflop. If he did then this is an easy stack off but if he doesnt and we weren't getting set odds then just fold preflop. Seriously, I'm surprised no one has even touched on this yet as an option; it can't be that bad of a fold because our opponent's range is so narrow and we have so little invested.

There is a chance villain was just spazzing out and bluffing you with a squeeze with AQ or something and he thinks his hand is good on the river. Since we called preflop with a very obvious top of range, we hit the very best hand we could, only one hand beats us and we're getting a decent price I'd probably just get it in and move on.

I think fold preflop is def a viable line and it would be my default against this villain with a more nitty player in MP. However, with a fish i MP I def think we can call here and I would expect him to call the vast majority of the time (iirc he had autofold selected once BB squeezed, presumably had he seen my call he would have called considerably wider.)

The reason I hated this hand is because I basically feel like I had made a good plan but I could not stick to it. On the river, my thoughts were that if he checks I can bet and get value from AK, if he shoves he has AA almost always and I should fold.

I think the issue here is, with both of our ranges being so narrow should I even be going for his stack with QQ here or is checking the flop or turn a good move? If a lot of regs are going to be playing like stacks here and check/folding the turn, I think small bet on flop, check back river then call/vbet big river is probs a good line to take. I think I got greedy trying to stack AK here...

Also, as for this being a monster 3bet size, 4BB ->14BB is my standard squeeze and when I suggested this in another thread I was told that this was too small.... Either way this seems like a standard squeeze size to me.

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Originally Posted by badgers

Also, as for this being a monster 3bet size, 4BB ->14BB is my standard squeeze and when I suggested this in another thread I was told that this was too small.... Either way this seems like a standard squeeze size to me.

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That's my standard squeeze too. You were told it was too small? Anymore about this?

Two main concerns here. (1) both of your ranges are just so narrow, and smash this board completely. I really doubt either one of you have a hand in your range that would be consider a bluff, and if you did, this would be a bad spot to bluff given others range. (2) The Q on the board changes things a bit. AK doesn't look so hot knowing QQ setted, and KK is less likely to put money in as he is beat by all of your value hands, and as said I'm not sure bluffing is occurring often here.

I do believe villain is checking his entire range on this flop. At least I would. And I see the problems with badgers checking his entire range back on this flop, as most turn cards won't change anything, and hands like KK, and possibly AK will likely not put too much money in the pot. However, I just really don't see value in betting AK,KK in badgers position on this flop. And I don't really want my betting range looking just like it is (QQ, AA). So I would check back the flop, and bet turn where villain would be more inclined to think I'm "thinly" vbetting KK, or deciding to extract with AK.

As far as calling in villains shoes, I see no value in calling even 1 street with KK, given badgers range. I highly doubt badgers turns any smaller pp he was setmining with here into a bluff, and some of the hands he calls lightly with preflop (if at all) are now ahead of KK. And AK follows close to the same logic.

I would personally probably check back the flop here, then vbet turn/river. If villain is willing to stack off with AK, I can still get it in on two streets. And I also give him the appearance that I'm weaker. I don't think I get much from KK regardless, but if he's calling a street, he would probably be more inclined to call a street if we check back flop. And well we get the money in whenever it's set v set anyways. So basically, I think our main concern is with how villain plays AK, and to base our line around extracting value from that, while still balancing our range.

But obv just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by mxiu

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Originally Posted by badgers

Also, as for this being a monster 3bet size, 4BB ->14BB is my standard squeeze and when I suggested this in another thread I was told that this was too small.... Either way this seems like a standard squeeze size to me.

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That's my standard squeeze too. You were told it was too small? Anymore about this?

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I just remember someone (possibly dean or renton, someone good anyway) in another thread saying always squeeze to at least 4x, but when they're opening 4xBB I personally think 14 is enough unless deep. With shallower effective stacks than 100BB I might 3bet even smaller.

Stacks I definitely agree with everything you wrote, especially the bit about basing our postflop plan on extracting from AK. I think this involves checking one street and not trying to get his whole stack. Weird hand anyway...

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

idk. This is just a weird spot imo. Like even if we check flop we are still in the same predicament on the turn. So it seems kinda bad to be checking our nut hands.

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Betting the flop is a must to set up the hand for later streets as he did - but unless our opponent is like on 1456th level hes turning zero hands into a bluff on the river and his whole range is value - with his range seemingly limited to 2% i dont see how his value range is anything other than AAA.
In addition its a great board for AAA as all your stackable hands are going to bet/bet/push type lines and get all the cash in without villain doing much (QQQ, AQ etc)

We either arent thinking hard enough about a situation where our opponent is levels above us and turning his hand into a massive bluff that we are good enough to fold QQQ - or we are overthinking a very simple value situation.

As i said above - at the table id probably think 'zomg 2nd set callz' while looking back at the HH and thinking about it - its a clear fold.

Add into the fact when i look up at my hud and see 17/8 im thinking level 1 semi-drooler at 2/4nl and mucking pretty quick.
if this hand was against a top 2/4 reg who plays higher as well its a much more difficult spot perhaps

miffed, you mention bluffs. What hands in villains range, or badgers range is going to be a bluff? And bluffing here in either spot seems bad.

And I understand the "betting here is a must to set up the hand on future streets" argument. But, iunno. as badgers against this villain (and even against most FR tags here), I don't see value in betting AK, KK on this flop. And I don't really want to bet the flop which will unbalance my range towards QQ,AA, as that also seems bad.

Given the number of combos in our range (24 combos [QQ+, AK]) it seems betting our range here when checked to on the flop is bad, as we would likely have to fold AK, KK to a c/r (and also not getting much value), and if we did that then we are bet/folding 18 combos or 75% of our range. And if we do put more money in our range is really geared towards QQ, AA still.

okay this is a fairly easy call because he can value shove worse. also your sample isnt the hudgest but sure a 2% or w/e 3b is low but hes still probably going to be bluffing a percentage of the time. and here he could easily be value shoving worse. like a6 that was pot controlling and bumped full. he can also be making a retard thin value shove with a9/aq/ak its also possible but less likely hes got hes got 99

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

And I understand the "betting here is a must to set up the hand on future streets" argument. But, iunno. as badgers against this villain (and even against most FR tags here), I don't see value in betting AK, KK on this flop. And I don't really want to bet the flop which will unbalance my range towards QQ,AA, as that also seems bad.

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its not really about value its about protecting your air and your kj/55/9ts or whatever