200NL: Play a hand OOP with me

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03-05-2009, 12:32 PM
jimmy44

200NL: Play a hand OOP with me

Villain one of the best regs (27/21/3).
He folds 55% to 3bet. This was the reason I didn't 3bet as I didn't wanted to play a big vs him with this hand OOP.
He 3bets 65% and 2barrils 45%.
FLOP: raise or call here? Raise is good as he might call with OESD/KJ/QJ/JT and maybe TT. But he would fold a lot his bad hands. By calling (on such a flop) he would barril any Q/J/K/A and maybe even a T, allowing us to pick an additional bet on turn.

I'll post the action as happened later on.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($232.50)
Hero (BB) ($200)
UTG ($200)
Button ($448.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
UTG bets $7, 2 folds, Hero calls $5

Flop: ($15) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $11, Hero ???
03-05-2009, 01:36 PM
Alexos

I could see either c/r or c/c here. What does he think of you, did he ever see you c/r bluff, can he fold top pair?

Turn and river are probably more interesting than flop here

edit: prob c/raising tho
03-05-2009, 06:09 PM
bjsaust

I would tend to c/c here, but I'm interested to read other responses.
03-05-2009, 06:55 PM
Galapogos

I probably c/c here since lately it seems like everyone is verging on the end of spewy aggro.

Who is villain btw?
03-05-2009, 07:16 PM
JL

If we don't c/r here then our value c/r range is going to be very small (sets and maybe J9s. I assume we are never flatting QQ+ here)
If we are check calling this hand on this board, then we should be check calling sets as well, no?
03-05-2009, 07:19 PM
bjsaust

I c/c a lot of my strong range on a fairly dry board like this. As galapogos says, lots of people seem to be pretty aggro lately, so I let them hang themselves a bit. That said, I've definately had people suggest that if our opponents are aggro we should raise and let them do something stupid. I guess it depends a bit on how we feel they'll reaction to a c/r.
03-05-2009, 10:31 PM
meeloche

Definitely don't 3 pre.

As for flop c/c or c/r are both fine depending on how you play your value range on dry boards. You know this better than I do.

Next street.
03-06-2009, 12:29 AM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by JL

If we don't c/r here then our value c/r range is going to be very small (sets and maybe J9s. I assume we are never flatting QQ+ here)
If we are check calling this hand on this board, then we should be check calling sets as well, no?

Yeah I guess it is 4 handed, I just saw UTG open and didn't realize how many people were sitting in. But I like to have thrown some garbage c/r's his way before I do so with TPTK for value. Probably a little paranoid of me, I still like the c/c though and let him go aggrotard at this point.
03-06-2009, 02:31 AM
Genitruc

with no reads or history this is an obvious C/C for me on the flop for a ton of reasons
03-06-2009, 05:39 AM
jimmy44

So I c/c on the flop.
Reason mainly, I was not sure he could call with a medium J plus the board was pretty dry.
I agree, however, that this should be a c/r. As this would be my normal play with a strong range.

Turn: ($37) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif - Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $24, Hero ???

Now, I don't think we can either raise or fold here. Standard call?
Reminder: villain 2barrils 45%
03-06-2009, 05:53 AM
Mayestic

Have to agree with some of he others, it depends on how you play your monsters on this board (and the fact if he knows how you do of course).

I tend to just call with sets here, and thus if I raise here he will "know" that I probably has a hand like JT (or of course AJ) and will be able to make a play. Do we call an allin with AJ here for example?
03-06-2009, 06:28 AM
Fnord

Check/call flop
Check/call turn
Check/fold river

My standard line here, although I can be convinced that we should play the flop differently.

Never folding the flop and his turn range is too wide to fold.
03-06-2009, 01:19 PM
meeloche

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy44

So I c/c on the flop.
Reason mainly, I was not sure he could call with a medium J plus the board was pretty dry.
I agree, however, that this should be a c/r. As this would be my normal play with a strong range.

Turn: ($37) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif - Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $24, Hero ???

Now, I don't think we can either raise or fold here. Standard call?
Reminder: villain 2barrils 45%

'

I call.
03-06-2009, 05:18 PM
jimmy44

I called.

River: ($65) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif - Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif - 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $35, Hero ???

Now, He could be value betting or bluffing the river. I think this looks more like a value bet, since our range seems average, he would be betting bigger for us to fold most of the time, right?
03-07-2009, 03:27 AM
bspahn

hmm we only have to be good 22.6% here to make this call.
pot should be 85 (37 + 24 +24)

have you seen him make thin value bets with v strong hands? i'd bet this way if i had a Q here or better knowing that most J's have to call here..
03-07-2009, 05:40 AM
Genitruc

turn your hand into a bluff and check-shove
03-07-2009, 06:03 AM
jimmy44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I probably c/c here since lately it seems like everyone is verging on the end of spewy aggro.

Who is villain btw?

Sorry Galapogos, I just missed your question.
Villain is CheckKill. Any reads on him?
03-07-2009, 06:05 AM
jimmy44

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

hmm we only have to be good 22.6% here to make this call.
pot should be 85 (37 + 24 +24)

have you seen him make thin value bets with v strong hands? i'd bet this way if i had a Q here or better knowing that most J's have to call here..

No I have not seen that from villain. I agree on your last sentence, so this should be a fold here, right?
03-07-2009, 06:07 AM
jimmy44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

turn your hand into a bluff and check-shove

This seems to make perfect sence.
How about if river was the 2 http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif? Would you still check-shove?
03-07-2009, 07:45 AM
Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

turn your hand into a bluff and check-shove

This seems to make perfect sence.
How about if river was the 2 http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif? Would you still check-shove?

nope
03-07-2009, 08:02 AM
jimmy44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

turn your hand into a bluff and check-shove

This seems to make perfect sence.
How about if river was the 2 http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif? Would you still check-shove?

nope

So c/f?
03-07-2009, 11:49 AM
noble007

I check call/raise flop and if I check called I would check fold turn.
(If the 9 on the flop was like a 7 or below or I would check call turn.)

But you're too far behind the 50% of his flop cbet range that he's betting on the turn. (even if you include turned straight and flush draws etc.)
03-07-2009, 01:43 PM
Genitruc

when it's :2s: fold sometimes block sometimes call sometimes
03-07-2009, 01:55 PM
Alexos

c/shove on heart river is hawt
03-07-2009, 02:56 PM
bspahn

if we decide that he has Q here or some other hand that beats AJ but will always fold to a c/shove, why do we want to shove reather than just CR ? if he makes it 35 and we make it 95 let's say, are we just encouraging him to call with hands like 2pr+, that wouldn't call a shove?
03-07-2009, 03:16 PM
Genitruc

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

if we decide that he has Q here or some other hand that beats AJ but will always fold to a c/shove, why do we want to shove reather than just CR ? if he makes it 35 and we make it 95 let's say, are we just encouraging him to call with hands like 2pr+, that wouldn't call a shove?

cuz regs can almost always convince themselves to be stationy when they re getting great odds - i ve found that that s one "level" thing (making it look like you want a call) that just doesn t work.

make it hurt and they ll fold.
03-09-2009, 02:32 AM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I probably c/c here since lately it seems like everyone is verging on the end of spewy aggro.

Who is villain btw?

Sorry Galapogos, I just missed your question.
Villain is CheckKill. Any reads on him?

Yeah he's alright. He's a bit too passive in these spots without top pair. I'm thinking he turned a pair of queens here. His river bet is not one to make you fold and too often I see him checking behind with something like AJ in spots like this.

His UTG range is also pretty wide so Genitruc's play could be the way to go. He definitely doesn't call river check/raises light.