4-bet AA called on brutal flop

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03-31-2009, 12:48 AM
Benzooka

4-bet AA called on brutal flop

Villian relatively unknown 11/9/4 over 52 hands with 7% three bet(so.. probably second threebet; not that important.. but notable)

My first hand at the table on my first rotation

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($24.70)
BB ($55.70)
UTG ($11.05)
UTG+1 ($50)
Hero (MP1) ($50)
MP2 ($65.90)
CO ($42.20)
Button ($52.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
2 folds, Hero bets $2, 2 folds, Button raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero raises to $15, Button calls $8

Flop: ($30.75) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $37.55 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $30.75 | Rake: $1.50
03-31-2009, 01:21 AM
CBAT

Your 4bet should be bigger.

And IDK about this flop lol. GL
03-31-2009, 01:50 AM
nutsinho

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBAT

Your 4bet should be smaller

i dont mind pitching it or calling on flop
03-31-2009, 03:01 AM
ZwiFT

Yeah 4bet size should def not be bigger
03-31-2009, 03:01 AM
ZwiFT

oh and btw i call
03-31-2009, 09:04 AM
CBAT

His range?

QQ, KK, AA, AK?
03-31-2009, 10:15 AM
BooG690

Why don't we want a bigger 4bet? Not arguing...just want an explanation for my own sake.
03-31-2009, 10:39 AM
Luco

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBAT

His range?

QQ, KK, AA, AK?

Well if these really are the only hands in his 3bet range you're still a bit better than coinflip on this board, on account of him having AK or AA more often than KK or QQ (I think? I'll do the math soon).

Having said that it's still a bastard of a flop, even if he'd hit a set he could be shoving here to protect it. I may have pushed first here, as played I'd be calling with my eyes closed fwiw, but folding isn't terrible.

And I'm also curious as to what would be wrong with a preflop shove / bigger 4bet here.
03-31-2009, 11:47 AM
Deanglow

I would take a line that doesn't involve folding
03-31-2009, 12:55 PM
bikes

Board: Kc Qd Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.013% 50.51% 04.51% 7500 669.50 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 44.987% 40.48% 04.51% 6011 669.50 { JJ+, AKs }

Sigh. Pokerstove is your friends guys.

Board: Kc Qh Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.123% 32.79% 07.33% 2922 653.00 { AcAd }
Hand 1: 59.877% 52.55% 07.33% 4682 653.00 { QQ+, AKs }

edit added a tighter range. w.e
03-31-2009, 01:08 PM
nutsinho

[ ] weighted ranges
03-31-2009, 03:07 PM
kmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

Why don't we want a bigger 4bet? Not arguing...just want an explanation for my own sake.

Raising bigger doesn't accomplish anything but tighten his range even more. It also helps make our 4bet bluffs cheaper.
03-31-2009, 04:10 PM
Chiseled_Glutes

Those stoves assume he's calling my first 4bet against him with AKs and shoving AKs on this flop... I'm not if I'm in his shoes(though that has little merrit) but I'm also not convinced he is. It beats nothing but has the value to beat my 4bet bluff range. If he could check it down he'd probably summersault around his living room. As played without any solid reads I have a hard time putting his range on less than QQ+, which is smoking me. What would you guys assume his 4bet calling range/shoving range to be?
04-03-2009, 04:06 AM
mixchange

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

Why don't we want a bigger 4bet? Not arguing...just want an explanation for my own sake.

Raising bigger doesn't accomplish anything but tighten his range even more. It also helps make our 4bet bluffs cheaper.

only somewhat true, I think he calls $16/17 just as easily as $15, and the accomplishment is more money in the pot with the best hand. something psychological about it being only a 2 dollar difference at this stake while the 8bb difference at higher stakes might make a bigger difference in betting patterns

i also don't expect many people 3betting at this stake to fold to a min 4bet very often, so as played his range is very wide making the AK/ qq+ range pretty silly
04-03-2009, 02:17 PM
Im_new

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

Why don't we want a bigger 4bet? Not arguing...just want an explanation for my own sake.

Raising bigger doesn't accomplish anything but tighten his range even more. It also helps make our 4bet bluffs cheaper.

only somewhat true, I think he calls $16/17 just as easily as $15, and the accomplishment is more money in the pot with the best hand. something psychological about it being only a 2 dollar difference at this stake while the 8bb difference at higher stakes might make a bigger difference in betting patterns

i also don't expect many people 3betting at this stake to fold to a min 4bet very often, so as played his range is very wide making the AK/ qq+ range pretty silly

So, what is his range?
04-05-2009, 09:54 PM
texa8

why do we care about narrowing villians range pre flop when we have the best hand?? 4 bet $20 looking to get it AI pre flop. also would make flop decision a lil easier if villian flat calls.
04-05-2009, 10:02 PM
badgers

Quote:

Originally Posted by texa8

why do we care about narrowing villians range pre flop when we have the best hand??

PLEASE think this through more thoroughly!!!
04-06-2009, 12:15 AM
texa8

1) i dont really like min raising or min reraising
2) i dont think reraising to something like 18-21 is going to narrow villians range toooo much. or does it?
3) gives us a better chance of getting in pre flop..

4) it was just a question.. im curious to know the reasons behind worrying about this..
04-06-2009, 05:52 AM
badgers

Well the reason we care so much about keeping villain's range as wide as possible is because we want value from as many hands as possible and we're not worried about being outdrawn because even with a raise to $15 we aren't giving odds to setmine or whatever.

The reason a lot of us want to keep the 4bet as small as possible is to give villain some hope that we can be bluffing (so hopefully if anything it will widen villain's preflop stacking off range since he thinks he has FE although at 50nl idk how effective this will be). If he calls he's always making a mistake, so let's encourage him to call as wide as possible. Just because you associate minraises with fish that have no clue, doesn't mean there isn't a place for them when they maximise value. Anyway, this isn't even a minraise!
04-06-2009, 02:54 PM
redarmy

4bet more, you could fold but he could make this move with AK
04-06-2009, 03:03 PM
badgers

Quote:

Originally Posted by redarmy

4bet more

:facepalm: