'Living off the losers' - Poker, the moral predicament?

Hi low/mid/high stakers.

Recently i've been having to defend myself amongst my friends regarding my aspiration to being a full time poker player. Firstly they don't believe one can earn a living from gambling, secondly they think it's a slippery slope... now those two things can be dismissed and turned around quite easily... but thirdly they say that we're earning a living off SOME people who have gambling addictions who just buy in and spew.

I threw in a guess that that isn't the case because of the poker economy. Losers give money to winners, sometimes winners give money to losers, but losers become winners and the cycle continues.

But i need to ask this fundamental question about earning a living from playing poker (mainly online, there's probably a much larger degree of drunken spewtards in vegas casinos so lets concentrate on online poker).

As a guess, what percent of online players have real issues and don't pay any mind to BRM etc. and just fuck their lives away at the tables?

I think no more than 0.01% but if it were a lot higher, like say 20% i'm not so sure i'd feel comfortable earning a living off them. But again, i really don't think this is the case and i just wanted to get some real feedback about the issue for my own conscience and so i can tell my friends they don't know what the f--k they're talking about :D

First, who the fuck cares, take their money. It's their problem not yours. Second, never tell anyone your a poker player or have aspirations of being a poker player until you can back it up like Nutsinho, gabe or Sauce. Then they have no argument that you made the right choice and it can be done.

The % is degens is definitely higher than the 0.01% you are giving. Gambling can actually become an addiction to some individuals. However, I look at it like this. First, it's not really my problem. I put in a lot of work to make +EV decisions in poker and life. If these individuals wish to play a game, and become addicted, and not take the measures to get better, then that's on them. That's like me feeling bad for a crack-addict who refuses to give up the addiction when he has the opportunities. It isn't gonna happen.

Second, I have to make a living. I'm sorry to say, but I value my time more than I would make if I found a job in my town. I've spent months working shit jobs (Mowing lawns 10-12 hours per day, etc), and if I can do something that will enable me to not go back to that type of work, then by all means I'm going to put my best foot forward and do so.

Third, I think you might have a skewed image of losing players. While there are some that do play and lose over and over again, which probably effects their life, this is not the majority of losers imo. The majority of losers deposit an amount they can afford to lose and play for recreation purposes. These are the guys that you see once and after you take their stack you don't see them again. This is definitely the group that the majority of the losing poker population comes from. They either see poker as a game of luck, and want to test that luck, or they see poker as a hobbie, and want to get their weekend fix.

Also, your incorrect about losers becoming winnings. While this obviously happens in some cases, it definitely isn't the common occurrence imo. I don't know the statistics, but significant majority of "poker players" are losers in the long run. And the majority will continue to blame their loses on luck and not seek out help with getting better.


I'd check-raise my own grandmother.

obviously the higher the stakes, the higher the percentage of problem gamblers who can't afford to lose what they're playing with. Just don't worry about it 's not your problem and I guess only becomes an issue if you're playing 5knl..

Funnily enough had this conversation with a friend of mine yday and my response was simply 'who cares, it's not my problem, if stupid people want to give their money away so be it'. Whilst that may not sound very empathetic it's true, pokers a dog eat dog game and there is no time to feel sorry for the bad players who consequently lose their money playing it.

If we're all winners, where is the money coming from? Your description of online poker sounds to me like some sort of great big Ponzi scheme - which by definition has to come crashing down at some point when we run out of fresh losers to come in.

The truth is that there are a lot more losers than winners out there in online poker land. Poker is a negative sum game - every dollar you win someone else has to lose, and when you include rake ...

I would say that more than 80% of online players don't pay any mind to BRM and donk away their money with no real idea what they're doing. However most of them are playing for entertainment with money they can afford to lose, so why would I feel sorry for them when I clean them out? My guess would be that the ones with real problems are a very small minority.

Tell that to Bernard Madoff

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Originally Posted by TonyB73

I would say that more than 80% of online players don't pay any mind to BRM and donk away their money with no real idea what they're doing. However most of them are playing for entertainment with money they can afford to lose, so why would I feel sorry for them when I clean them out? My guess would be that the ones with real problems are a very small minority.

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This.. However, I would say 80% is on the low end. I mean there are numerous people on this site that has been introduced to bankroll management, yet still do not understand it's importance and fail to adhere to it. Imagine if you have never been introduced to the concepts of variance and BRM.

And basically, poker is like any other game/sport. The good will prevail. I wouldn't feel bad if I spent countless hours getting good at football/baseball/etc, and continually beat someone who didn't put in the time and effort I put in. In both cases, their lack of effort have cost them wins, and money.

How badly do you think Casinos feel with they check their profit statements? Casinos are built and paid for by losing gamblers. Mostly, it's people there to have a good time, try their luck and shrug off the couple hundred they lose. But there is a reason why they comp the high rollers. In the long run they have the advantage.

Poker is a "fair" game with no inheritant advantages for the house or each player. Your advantage comes from your skill level, but even that doesn't stop you from losing from time to time. If you play poker and win, you are taking money from someone. That's the way it works. It's certainly more personal than winning a million at a slot machine from some faceless corporation (although online is obviously less personal than live), but in order for you to make money, someone has to lose it.

To me, your friends are talking out of ignorance. Sure there are problem gamblers out there, but it's not your problem to diagnose their affliction and tell them to seek help. There's a good section on this in Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep over it.

it's survival of the fittest. arguably we take the dumb people's money out of their hands give it to the smart

If losing players stop playing, obviously poker will become harder..... This should reallllly be quite obvious. Idk much about ponzi schemes etc. but a lot of the money is made by players who have made a small deposit, run good at lower stakes then move up and donate.

I don't mind taking money from bad players at all. Like Stax says (and i was thinking much the same) if you don't train hard then you will deserve to lose anyway.

I think my main issue was taking money from people with serious addictions BUT i estimate those people to be a very low percentage. How low i have no idea.

Poker isn't like blackjack, it's a game of skill with a small(ish) but very deffinite margin of luck. Infact i enjoy taking money from the stupid as i see it as an insult when they turn over Q2o to my KK after a f--k off 3 or 4 bet.

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Originally Posted by wonderland

Poker isn't like blackjack, it's a game of skill with a small(ish) but very deffinite margin of luck.

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Small margin of luck? There is plenty of luck involved. How skillful you are overrides it in the long-run though.

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

it's survival of the fittest. arguably we take the dumb people's money out of their hands give it to the smart

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word

If you dont take the manies someone else will. If at the end of the day u feel a moral dilemma donate some to charity or volunteer.

I think those people you might feel bad for have absolutley no problem taking your money so why should you.

I think if we teach and help other players who are less experienced than we are, then that's giving something back.

So if your providing opportunities for not so good players to learn, then you've done all you can i guess.

I think more people would suffer if i just kept a day job. Coz i'd end up going stir crazy, arming myself with an automatic weapon and unloading on my office!

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Originally Posted by wonderland

I think if we teach and help other players who are less experienced than we are, then that's giving something back.

So if your providing opportunities for not so good players to learn, then you've done all you can i guess.

I think more people would suffer if i just kept a day job. Coz i'd end up going stir crazy, arming myself with an automatic weapon and unloading on my office!

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This deeply disturbed me for some reason :lol:

And screw giving people a chance to learn. There are books/videos/websites etc out there, waiting to be found. If they wanted to learn all they gotta do is go to google and type in: poker. EZ game imo.

Most jobs operate on the winners vs. losers model. Everyone can't be successful at everything and if we spent all of our time worrying about that then none of us would ever get ahead.

This isn't to say that we should exploit others (like that drunk guy blowing 1k every weekend at the casino) but like others said - not your problem. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you should feel about about others not being as good. Just my opinion though.

Some people just want to give away their money. To them it's like paying for an entertainment experience, with the added chance of actually winning. I'm happy to provide the entertainment.

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Originally Posted by wonderland

I think if we teach and help other players who are less experienced than we are, then that's giving something back.

So if your providing opportunities for not so good players to learn, then you've done all you can i guess.

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We call that "learner's tax". By stacking the donks, I educate them. Just don't type anything in the chat box.

I stacked a fish once who had AA and was showing NO signs of strength, he let me see my str8 or flush by the river.

i typed: that, son, is why we NEVER, EVER slow play aces.

and left the table.

(coz he was the table fish and was no sitting out)

sometimes i can't help it, it's so unprofessional.

[x] more professional not to say a word after stacking someone

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Originally Posted by wonderland

I stacked a fish once who had AA and was showing NO signs of strength, he let me see my str8 or flush by the river.

i typed: that, son, is why we NEVER, EVER slow play aces.

and left the table.

(coz he was the table fish and was no sitting out)

sometimes i can't help it, it's so unprofessional.

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Act like you've stacked someone before.

first time imo

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

[x] more professional not to say a word after stacking someone

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Yeah, I very very rarely needle someone after I've taken their money. Heck, I rarely give much grief after they take mine. Shit is emotionally charged enough already. Regulars and the floor have actually commented on how nice I am.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

[x] more professional not to say a word after stacking someone

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Yeah, I very very rarely needle someone after I've taken their money. Heck, I rarely give much grief after they take mine. Shit is emotionally charged enough already. Regulars and the floor have actually commented on how nice I am.

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And how pimp you look in your fly ass green suit too, amirite?

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

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Originally Posted by TonyB73

I would say that more than 80% of online players don't pay any mind to BRM and donk away their money with no real idea what they're doing. However most of them are playing for entertainment with money they can afford to lose, so why would I feel sorry for them when I clean them out? My guess would be that the ones with real problems are a very small minority.

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This.. However, I would say 80% is on the low end. I mean there are numerous people on this site that has been introduced to bankroll management, yet still do not understand it's importance and fail to adhere to it. Imagine if you have never been introduced to the concepts of variance and BRM.

And basically, poker is like any other game/sport. The good will prevail. I wouldn't feel bad if I spent countless hours getting good at football/baseball/etc, and continually beat someone who didn't put in the time and effort I put in. In both cases, their lack of effort have cost them wins, and money.

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Shit, I was playing against some guy in 100NL HU and he was like "how many buyins do you have?" of course I didn't answer, but he had 16 buyins and playing NL100, heads-up no less

obviously he knows about BRM and obviously he doesn't give a shit

AND I SAID SON - NEVER SLOW PLAY ACES

Thought I would vent in here after an incident that happened to me last night and give my two cents on the subject.

I play in a regular pub game for a bit of fun and a few beers with 7 or 8 guys who all know I make a lot of money playing online and elsewhere. They are mainly the worst loose passive types ever. Heads up post flop situations are very rare, usually it is 4 or 5 handed. They make huge bluffs in ridiculous spots and moan like crazy when they get called, and on the rare occasion they force one of the other fish to fold his A high or bottom pair on the river, they show it down with glee and think they are Phil Ivey. Most of them are fairly decent guys and a good laugh, but just can't accept they aren't good players and refuse to understand the game properly. They gamble with money they think they can afford to lose, but in my opinion some of them would be better off using it elsewhere in their lives or at least learning how to win more often!!


Last night I overheard one guy (who is probably the biggest loser in the game) saying to another that I don't win that often and my play is pretty crap because I don't play many hands like all the big stars on TV, and probably don't really make much money online at all. This really made me think about what makes guys like this tick because they make up a large percentage of losing poker players online and live.

I have always been willing to chat about hands and strategy with these guys in the pub (if they ask me) and it should be obvious to them that I cash in almost 50% of the STTs we play. Yet people like this refuse to acknowledge what is staring them in the face, that I am winning money and they lose money.

Reason? Ego!
They love it when they knock me out a tourney and because they sometimes win, they think they are the greatest player around. It is their ego that stops them being able to accept advice on how to improve their game and stop losing. People like this will never become winners at poker or in life until they can get their ego in check.

I have absolutely no qualms at all about taking their money because they gamble for kicks and I would be happy to give them coaching if they would just ask me.

As for the losers in the game that have a gambling addiction, if this bothers you then why not donate some of your winnings to a charity that helps people like this. You cannot make these people seek help but if you support a charity that supports them when they do ask for help then some of their lost money is waiting there for them.

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

I'd check-raise my own grandmother.

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I did this to my grandmother and grandfather lol...

Then I was told by the family that this was not allowed. You are not allowed to check and then bet later on in the same betting round. I tried to argue, but my family has been played poker since before I was born.

I thought it was pretty humorous, because they know that I've made some decent money player poker. But I guess house rules?

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Originally Posted by wonderland

I think if we teach and help other players who are less experienced than we are, then that's giving something back.

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This will only make your job harder.

Well it's just unethical. I mean you checked giving people the belief that you might have a weak hand, then you raise when they bet signifying you have a strong hand? Now that's just being dishonest. That's almost like bluffing, and we all know bluffing isn't allowed.