weird spot

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05-17-2009, 03:21 PM
meeloche

weird spot

Villain is 23/18/2.5 I haven't played with him much at all so no real reads or history to speak of.

Plan?

No-Limit Hold'em, $6.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($409.95)
UTG ($615)
Hero (MP) ($782.80)
CO ($148.90)
Button ($644.85)
SB ($123)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG bets $18, Hero calls $18, 4 folds

Flop: ($45) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $30, UTG raises $114, Hero?
05-17-2009, 03:28 PM
Da GOAT

wtf, that sucks.

Id put him on a big draw, ill def just call his raise and reevaluate.
05-17-2009, 04:00 PM
Alexos

call/get it in on most turns
05-17-2009, 04:12 PM
Stacks

What kind of range will we be looking at in this spot? I'm never quite sure what they are doing this with.
05-17-2009, 05:55 PM
Da GOAT

its pretty polarised imo although leans mostly towards big FDs. so we are either a flip or 60/40 dog so we call here IP.

If we were OOP here do we call then lead turn??
05-17-2009, 06:29 PM
nutsinho

fold?
05-17-2009, 09:57 PM
ATOTHEC101

I fold too, his c/r range on this flop after raising utg has us so crushed, nearly all big draws, 99/1010, kk/aa.
05-17-2009, 10:09 PM
Alexos

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

fold?

zzzz :D
05-17-2009, 11:30 PM
dsaxton

Against a total random with no history, the standard play of reraising preflop is probably best. On the flop, folding is probably slightly better than calling / raising, and it has the lowest variance obviously.
05-18-2009, 12:14 AM

idk people don't c/r a lot vs. me on the flop when THEY are the PFR
but every time they do they want to play for stacks...
05-18-2009, 04:41 AM
Irisheyes

Kinda slightly off-topic but if I am the villain in this hand

1) Should I have a check/raising range at all on this flop as the PFR?
2) How should I weight it assuming it's the first time I've ever c/r meeloche as the PFR?

Keep in mind I think we should be c/f this flop a lot as the PFR in general. I assume everyone agrees with that?
05-18-2009, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Kinda slightly off-topic but if I am the villain in this hand

1) Should I have a check/raising range at all on this flop as the PFR?
2) How should I weight it assuming it's the first time I've ever c/r meeloche as the PFR?

Keep in mind I think we should be c/f this flop a lot as the PFR in general. I assume everyone agrees with that?

Well, certain conditions have to apply
1. Villain will go lol stab when we check
2. Villain won't check his draws back that often
then we can do it as a bluff and giving up if called, and for value if we don't mind getting 3b

we'll c/f this flop some of the time and c/r another percentage of the time
I think the best hand to do it with is the nut flush draw since we don't mind letting the flop check through or getting it in on the flop
but first time we do it we shouldn't do it with a set because we really hate if villain checks back and it looks really strong anyway
after we do it a few times we should add our stronger hands
it's actually a really interesting line to use as a bluff because we can use it instead of c/fing which makes us tougher to deal with OOP
05-18-2009, 07:03 AM
Irisheyes

That's pretty much exactly what my thoughts were iopq. I think your 2 assupmtions at the start will hold true for most midstakes regs the first few times you run this line also.
05-18-2009, 08:58 PM
meeloche

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Kinda slightly off-topic but if I am the villain in this hand

1) Should I have a check/raising range at all on this flop as the PFR?
2) How should I weight it assuming it's the first time I've ever c/r meeloche as the PFR?

Keep in mind I think we should be c/f this flop a lot as the PFR in general. I assume everyone agrees with that?

1) Definitely not imo. Think about what I would bet on the flop when you check as the pfr. Everything with showdown value I'm checking and I'm only betting hands that I'm not folding and some air but how much air do I have when I call a utg raise on that board?

You also get more money out of my bluffs if you cbet. Any air that I choose to balance my range with on that board I'm gonna raise your cbet and fire a lot of turns. So you can get that value or you can get one 3/4 pot bet, which would you prefer? How bout my showdown value hands that I may want to peel 1 street with?

Taking this line as a bluff the first time you do it is bad cause when I see somebody take a line that is weird and doesn't make sense I shovel in a bunch of money.

Also good luck balancing that range without loosing value from your flop betting range.

Kinda one sided but I obviously think c/r this board with anything is terrible.

I agree with you irish that the standard should be c/f a lot.
05-18-2009, 10:23 PM

I actually give up on the turn if called after a c/r a lot because I have no reason to believe a NL100 reg will float a c/r on the flop. Also, I did say that we should take this line with the nut flush draw the first time we do it. So go ahead and shovel.

I think it's a better line to take when you're SB and I call you in the BB. Your range is probably weak and leading a lot of flops will get you floated and raised a whole bunch by me. C/f is also not optimal because I will bet when you check to me. But if we take the c/r line a few times I will start letting you have a free card on the flop.
05-18-2009, 10:36 PM
meeloche

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I actually give up on the turn if called after a c/r a lot because I have no reason to believe a NL100 reg will float a c/r on the flop.

Well that's the type of thinking that will give you the opportunity to play 100nl forever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Also, I did say that we should take this line with the nut flush draw the first time we do it. So go ahead and shovel.

Thank you for at least 5% of the pot then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I think it's a better line to take when you're SB and I call you in the BB. Your range is probably weak and leading a lot of flops will get you floated and raised a whole bunch by me. C/f is also not optimal because I will bet when you check to me. But if we take the c/r line a few times I will start letting you have a free card on the flop.

Completely different situation but your not giving people I play against everyday enough credit. Bloating the pot oop when you have an unbalanced range is going to kill you when you are playing against somebody who is not a drooling retard. I can play way better if I have a wide strong range and you decide to dick with me. You are also overestimating the ev of getting into bvb pissing matches with good regulars.
05-19-2009, 12:11 AM

No, that's the type of thinking that lets me BEAT 100NL. Barreling after c/r against unimpressive regs is spew. When I play 100NL HU I definitely have to barrel people off their c/r floats because they actually DO FLOAT.

Also, I do believe AsKs is ahead of your shoving range on the flop. Especially if you shove something less than the nuts because my line doesn't make sense. If you have a set and I have AsKs on this flop, we're probably playing for stacks anyway, so why does it matter what line I take?

That said, I haven't seen good regulars at NL100 yet. Good players, yes, but surely the best players at 100NL are not regulars to the game and generally play higher. BVB pissing matches are so far EV+, especially in position. But I really have to shut down in the SB against people who know what a 3b is.

As far as your other comments, I am polarizing my range to bluffs and hands that don't mind sticking it in. Maybe that's not a good thing in a vacuum, but that allows me to check more flops and expect him to check it back a lot more
on the flip side we should b/f a lot less because our betting range should include medium strength hands and we should probably b/c
so we should probably c/f some of the hands we'd b/f ordinarily

what are some of the downsides to using this strategy? is polarizing your range basically a bad thing to do in general?
05-19-2009, 01:27 AM
meeloche

Trying to generalise this is kinda ridiculous cause of all the variables but here's a simple example of why I prefer to have a wide range vs a polarized range in a lot of spots. (there are spots for sure where a polarized range is better but its in the minority for me)

Polarizing your range makes it much harder to play on the turn profitably and river vs somebody who can hand read.

Consider the following hand:

You raise on the button and are called by the BB.

100bb deep its a hu pot.

The flop is :tc: :8c: :2s:

BB Checks and you Bet, BB calls

Turn :3s:

BB Checks and you Bet BB calls

River :kd:

When you bet this river with a polarized range your range for value is 2 pr or better usually or missed draws/air. Now look at that board and compare how many missed draws there are vs how many combos of 2pr or better there are. Vs somebody who can hand read you're going to have a hard time convincing him that you have a big hand here very often so betting a missed draw isn't going to be as profitable as it would be if you have a wide range for value on this board.

If villain knows you're capable of betting Kx,10x 99, JJ, QQ, look how much stronger your value range just got. Now there are a lot more hands for value he can put you on and therefore you can represent a wider range with a bet than before. So now bluffing with a missed draw is going to be much more profitable because his "bluff catcher" isn't going to be the best hand as often as before.

This is obviously depending on what villain is thinking and you should be adjusting your ranges depending on gameflow, leveling villain etc.
05-19-2009, 01:48 AM

A spot where a lot of people polarize their range is cbetting on the flop vs. an opponent with an optimal c/r frequency. Basically they polarize their range to a lot of hands that can call a raise and to hands that are total bluffs and check back their bottom pairs/middle pairs with bad kickers. What is the downside? Of course, your range is really weak when you check back, but you can check back a strong hand once in a while to induce a two barrel bluff.
05-19-2009, 04:01 AM
Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Kinda slightly off-topic but if I am the villain in this hand

1) Should I have a check/raising range at all on this flop as the PFR?
2) How should I weight it assuming it's the first time I've ever c/r meeloche as the PFR?

Keep in mind I think we should be c/f this flop a lot as the PFR in general. I assume everyone agrees with that?

1) Definitely not imo. Think about what I would bet on the flop when you check as the pfr. Everything with showdown value I'm checking and I'm only betting hands that I'm not folding and some air but how much air do I have when I call a utg raise on that board?

See the thing is that if you believe that the PFR should be check/folding a lot on this flop, and you believe that you're not getting check/raised a ton (I don't think that flop c/r-ing as the PFR is that prevalent), then you should probably be betting your hands with showdown value to make me fold my equity share. Also if you polarize your range on this flop by checking back showdown hands it basically lets me bluff any turn and river with impunity.

But then once you start adjusting and betting your medium strength hands once I (the PFR) check, I guess that's when I nee to start implementing a c/r range. I kinda assumed that most midstakes regs were already making the adjustment of un-polarizing once I check that flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

You also get more money out of my bluffs if you cbet. Any air that I choose to balance my range with on that board I'm gonna raise your cbet and fire a lot of turns. So you can get that value or you can get one 3/4 pot bet, which would you prefer?

It's really hard for me to combat if you're going to raise this flop with a balanced range and then bet the turn when I call so I don't understand why you're saying that I can play back at that line and win more money by cbetting? As you already stated correctly you don't have that much air in your preflop range on this flop so what am I supposed to do? That's why I elset to c/f the flop a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

How bout my showdown value hands that I may want to peel 1 street with?

Nobody in their right mind bets the turn after you checked the flop behind and then doesn't bet like 100% of rivers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

Taking this line as a bluff the first time you do it is bad cause when I see somebody take a line that is weird and doesn't make sense I shovel in a bunch of money.

Also good luck balancing that range without loosing value from your flop betting range.

Yeah true.
05-19-2009, 05:16 AM
Da GOAT

My bwain hurtz
05-19-2009, 11:56 AM
GatorJH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

My bwain hurtz

this

+1

mine too
05-19-2009, 12:59 PM
Renton

yeah fold, his range is AA/sets/draws and u are crushed
05-19-2009, 01:00 PM
Renton

and fwiw, i thought it was a fold before i saw nutsinho post
05-19-2009, 01:22 PM
meeloche

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

1) Definitely not imo. Think about what I would bet on the flop when you check as the pfr. Everything with showdown value I'm checking and I'm only betting hands that I'm not folding and some air but how much air do I have when I call a utg raise on that board?

See the thing is that if you believe that the PFR should be check/folding a lot on this flop, and you believe that you're not getting check/raised a ton (I don't think that flop c/r-ing as the PFR is that prevalent), then you should probably be betting your hands with showdown value to make me fold my equity share. Also if you polarize your range on this flop by checking back showdown hands it basically lets me bluff any turn and river with impunity.

I haven't stoved it or anything and its obviously largely guessing but I think my check behind range is ahead of your flop checking range. It doesn't really matter though because I'd just rather play on the turn and the river. I've just tailored my ranges to do that. Theres so many variables though that I don't think theres much merit to a general discussion about it and by no means is betting all your showdown value stuff on the flop going to be bad if you organize it properly its just that I don't do it vs the majority of villains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

You also get more money out of my bluffs if you cbet. Any air that I choose to balance my range with on that board I'm gonna raise your cbet and fire a lot of turns. So you can get that value or you can get one 3/4 pot bet, which would you prefer?

It's really hard for me to combat if you're going to raise this flop with a balanced range and then bet the turn when I call so I don't understand why you're saying that I can play back at that line and win more money by cbetting? As you already stated correctly you don't have that much air in your preflop range on this flop so what am I supposed to do? That's why I elset to c/f the flop a lot.

With your nut range you lose value by not cbetting was my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

How bout my showdown value hands that I may want to peel 1 street with?

Nobody in their right mind bets the turn after you checked the flop behind and then doesn't bet like 100% of rivers.

This is not the case in the games I play. vs some people yes vs most no. Plus this is so dependent on turn and river combo's and the player etc. I'm pretty confident playing the turn and river in position so I'm not concerned with checking behind the flop with hands I would like to get to showdown with.

My general thought is that I just don't like c/r as the pfr in any situations vs thinking players based on how I've structured my ranges to be as wide as possible and to credibly have bluffs in them.
05-19-2009, 01:35 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

and fwiw, i thought it was a fold before i saw nutsinho post

How much exactly is this worth?
05-20-2009, 11:22 AM
IowaSkinsFan

Nutsssiiiiiiinnnhhooooo
05-21-2009, 01:12 AM
Renton

pfr c/r can be good, just not here
05-21-2009, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

pfr c/r can be good, just not here

when is it good
05-22-2009, 03:12 AM
Renton

Its good in spots where the board texture, preflop positions, and reads are such that when you check he will automatically bet 3/4 the pot 80-100% of the time.