5NL hands for evaluation

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06-15-2009, 11:58 AM
Senguin

5NL hands for evaluation

Hey guys just a couple of hands i played this morning. All with players i had less than 50 hands read on, and nothing significant to note. Should i be slowplaying a little more on the last 2?

First one:
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($5.20)
BB ($1)
UTG ($5.62)
UTG+1 ($3)
MP1 ($2.98)
Hero (MP2) ($4.93)
MP3 ($6.33)
CO ($5)
Button ($6.36)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
3 folds, Hero bets $0.15, 2 folds, Button raises to $0.50, SB raises to $2.40, 2 folds, Button raises to $6.36 (All-In), SB calls $2.80 (All-In)

Flop: ($10.60) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($10.60) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($10.60) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $10.60 | Rake: $0.70

Number 2
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($9.90)
SB ($0.95)
BB ($5.62)
UTG ($3)
UTG+1 ($2.98)
Hero (MP1) ($4.78)
MP2 ($6.33)
MP3 ($5)
CO ($1.16)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.20, MP2 calls $0.20, 2 folds, Button calls $0.20, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.87) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.60, 3 folds

Total pot: $0.87 | Rake: $0.05

Number 3:
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($4.80)
UTG+1 ($5.11)
MP1 ($5.07)
MP2 ($5.67)
MP3 ($1.34)
CO ($6.27)
Button ($7.45)
SB ($3.02)
BB ($10.60)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
Hero bets $0.15, UTG+1 calls $0.15, 6 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.47) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.45, 2 folds

Total pot: $0.47 | Rake: $0.03

Thanks for any input.
06-15-2009, 12:09 PM
Luco

Hand 1: good fold
Hand 2: Top set, safe board, 4 way pot, there's no need to bet more than 1/2 pot here.
Hand 3: I'm not sure about the bet sizing, I'd bet about the same but will wait for input from someone else here.
06-15-2009, 12:09 PM
surviva316

we need reads on villains in hand 1 to help you. (www.pokertracker.com/ free 90 day trial and by then you can buy a hud program)

hand 2: i can stomach checking, but it is very much opponent dependent (opps must be aggressive), and bet, bet, bet your sets is just such an easy way to play poker.

hand 3: i CANNOT NOT NOT stand a slow play. first off the deck is full of scare cards. second off there are about a bazillion hand combos that think they have the nuts (two pair, TP + SD, combo draws, TPTK, etc), so you're being called down so much here
06-15-2009, 12:16 PM
Senguin

Thanks,

#1 i mentioned that i had very little read on the opponents, maybe less than 20 hands on that particular hand. I just was playing a 3 raise meant one of them had AA or KK, and then when i folded and he went all-in i was pretty sure he did.

#2 This is the one i wanted to slow play because the board was so innocent. the only thing i would have been scared of was a higher pair, but i figured if someone had a higher pair then he would have raised me, and i could have killed him with my set.

#3 Yes this is why i didn't slow play, i knew this was a crazy board to wait with. If a 10 would have come i would have been dead.
06-15-2009, 12:22 PM
Vinland

1) Good fold imo
2) maybe bet a touch less but there wasn't likely any $$ to be made.
3) What Surviva said. In general this is not a slowplay candidate. 2 hearts on flop, lots of high cards that could hit villains ranges and str8 possiblities...their folds mean that neither of them had a single one of those opportunities so again, there was probably no $$ to be had.
06-15-2009, 01:00 PM
Erpel

Quick post on flop bet sizing (do some research and there is much said about it).

It is not bad to standardize your bet size, rather than vary them by hand strength.

It is acceptable (and to many recommended) to vary flop bet size based on flop texture.

One of the arguments for varying the bet size is this: If I have a kind of hand and you have a kind of hand and I'm ahead - how many outs do you have? The flop texture defines what kinds of made hands and draws we can have and gives an idea how many outs we need to price out when we make a bet, and if we are observant we can make a bet size that makes it a mistake for many likely hands to call - while still making it tempting for them to call.

If the flop is very dry (three different suits, few/no straights possible, not too much high card emphasis as most ppl prefer playing high cards) the classical example is that both have a pair, I have the higher pair, or we have the same pair and I have a higher kicker - which means that the opponent has two or three outs twice to win. Even a half pot bet on a dry flop correctly prices out the hands you are most likely to be playing against.

Similarly the wettest flops will have a classical example of you on top/over pair and the opponent on a straight, flush or combo draw with 8, 9, 12 or 15 outs. In the case of 12 or 15 outs the opponent is AI and there's nothing really to do about it, in the case of 8 or 9 outs you pretty much have to bet pot to price out the draws.

A possible guideline is this:
3 different suits, no straight draws possible: 1/2 PSB
3 different suits, straight draws possible: 2/3/PSB
2 suits, no straight draws: 3/4 PSB
2 suits, straight draws possible: PSB

This should be a starting point and many comments are based on this - like in hand 2 a 1/2 PSB seems sensible as you may keep in 99-77 that might fold to your 2/3 PSB, which is why some comments have been to bet a bit less in hand 2. Because the flop is as wet as it gets in hand 3 that's a prime candidate for a full pot sized bet.

The point about it being a starting point is that after having set a standard bet size vs an unknown we should adjust it based on the playing tendencies of the opponent.

You may decide to bet a flop for value or as a bluff, but once you've decided you don't want your opponent to know whether you are betting as a bluff or for value and using the same bet size helps achieve this objective.

Imo, go back to hand 2 and state exactly which hands (aside from the TT that you happened to have in this hand) you would play in exactly the same way (with exactly the same bet sizes).

Example with a tight range (hand combinations in parenthesis):
Preflop: 22-AA, AK-AQ, AJs, KQs
Flop: 33 (3), 66 (3), TT (3), JJ-AA (6*4=24), AK (16)

Ok, I'll stop at AK this time to explain my point. Let's say we compare a PSB and a 1/2 PSB. If we bet 33,66,TT, JJ-AA we are betting for value - we think we have the best hand and if called expect still to have the best hand. If we bet AK we bet as a (semi-)bluff. True, if an A or K comes on turn or river we may improve to the best hand, but we expect to be behind. We bet because we expect our opponent to 1) call worse or 2) fold better (77-99 etc) often enough that it's profitable to bet some hands that don't beat a calling range.

If we bet full PSB a lot of the weaker hands will simply give up and fold. This will be especially true of 98,87,Tx,6x,77-99 hands that have some equity and might call a small bet. So with our AK type hands we fold some hands we beat and fold some hands that beat us - but with our better hands we fold out a lot of hands that we beat. If we bet 1/2 PSB we might get calls from many of these and while AK is not a favourite against this whole sub range it still has equity. And so does AQ, AJs and KQs. Since the bet size is smaller we need a lot less fold equity for the bet to be profitable so it can be mathematically proven (which I don't intend to attempt) that if we make a big bet we have to make it with a narrow bluff/semi-bluff range whereas if we make a small bet (and it still has some fold equity) we can be correct to make it with a wider and weaker range.

If we make a 1/2 PSB on a very dry flop we might end up both getting more value out of our value range and more value out of our bluff/semi-bluff range if we compare to a 2/3, 3/4 or full PSB.
06-16-2009, 04:57 AM
Luco

tl;dr - have a standard bet size for varying flop textures, and use that size with all of your hands on that type of board.

btw, this is also something to look for. If a wannabe TAG leads out weak on a very wet flop then they probably haven't got much worth protecting.
06-16-2009, 07:50 AM

In hand 1 the standard should be a shove and I would postulate that you'd have to have a read to fold because I've seen people randomly decide to 4b TT here for no fucking reason
basically the people I would not shove against are nits and passive players
people I would shove against are 40/20 fish that don't quite know wtf they're doing but randomly bet because they hear being aggressive is cool which is like 50% of NL5

hands 2/3 don't slowplay
06-16-2009, 08:08 AM
Luco

hmm, shoving QQ into a cold 4bet vs unknowns because it's $5nl and you've seen someone do worse?
06-16-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucothefish

hmm, shoving QQ into a cold 4bet vs unknowns because it's $5nl and you've seen someone do worse?

Well as a default you'd stick it in against the original reraiser, right?
06-16-2009, 08:27 AM
Luco

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucothefish

hmm, shoving QQ into a cold 4bet vs unknowns because it's $5nl and you've seen someone do worse?

Well as a default you'd stick it in against the original reraiser, right?

Yeah, just not a cold one
06-16-2009, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucothefish

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucothefish

hmm, shoving QQ into a cold 4bet vs unknowns because it's $5nl and you've seen someone do worse?

Well as a default you'd stick it in against the original reraiser, right?

Yeah, just not a cold one

I doubt NL5 opponents know the difference so I expect very little difference against their range

I meant SB's bet sizing obviously shows that he doesn't know proper 4b bet sizing and that he'd rather you fold (but he's pot committed to a shove)

I wouldn't be surprised if this went down something like 88 (SB) vs. AK (BU)
06-18-2009, 06:05 AM
surviva316

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

In hand 1 the standard should be a shove and I would postulate that you'd have to have a read to fold because I've seen people randomly decide to 4b TT here for no fucking reason

it's less common than you'd think from players w 100bb+ stacks. the <$2 stacks are the ones that push any hand they've seen win a big pot in the latest episode of the WSOP.

w/o reads, though, i would......
06-18-2009, 03:56 PM
JKDS

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

In hand 1 the standard should be a shove and I would postulate that you'd have to have a read to fold because I've seen people randomly decide to 4b TT here for no fucking reason

it's less common than you'd think from players w 100bb+ stacks. the <$2 stacks are the ones that push any hand they've seen win a big pot in the latest episode of the WSOP.

w/o reads, though, i would......

ppl dont 3b bluff or 4b bluff, or 3b/4b anything with worse than qq at 5nl. if you talk to any player at 5nl, most will tell u that they play JJ and TT passively because they dont know what to do if a akq comes out or blah blah sucked out or blah blah im a fish that cant play these hands profitably because they are equivalent to 77. If you want to argue calling, then your best bet is to see AKvAK because button and sb's range is exactly AK, KK+ without reads that they are 3b,4b monkeys. Ya, you might see a TT 4b for no apparent reason...but thats less than 5% of the time.
06-18-2009, 03:59 PM
bigspenda73

i like em all
06-18-2009, 10:44 PM
dmoney38

First hand- good. @Iopq shove is wrong, best case ak and underpair, you arent a big favorite. Much more likely case is you're facing an overpair, especially at these stakes. Random nonsensical bluffs are more common, but 4 and 5 bets generally indicate real strength.

Second hand- Im confused, why isn't this a perfect slowplaying candidate? I would check, could someone explain why not to?

Third hand- Not sure why you posted, good play
06-18-2009, 11:59 PM
surviva316

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmoney38

Second hand- Im confused, why isn't this a perfect slowplaying candidate? I would check, could someone explain why not to?

'cause at 5nl, barring reads, there aren't really any "perfect slowplaying candidates." this is like one of the best candidates to slowplay at 5nl without reads, but that's like being the smartest kid with downs syndrome. villains will call all 3 streets w TPTK and are unlikely to bluff their chips away if they don't have a hand, so you're just better off forcing them to put the chips in
06-19-2009, 12:36 AM
Fnord

4x pre-flop at these stakes outside of steal position.
5x after a limptard

Hand 1: Standard
Hand 2: Bet less on flop. Dry flop.
Hand 3: Yes, pot this flop.
06-19-2009, 04:15 AM
dmoney38

How can you count on making your money off of villains calling three streets with TPTK when there is only one ten left? I doubt there are any overpairs not 3 betting pre and even at 5nl i doubt underpairs will call two streets. I dont doubt you guys are right i just still don't understand.

btw i enjoyed the Waiting down syndrome quote
06-19-2009, 01:04 PM
Monty3038

Re: 5NL hands for evaluation

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senguin

First one:
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($5.20)
BB ($1)
UTG ($5.62)
UTG+1 ($3)
MP1 ($2.98)
Hero (MP2) ($4.93)
MP3 ($6.33)
CO ($5)
Button ($6.36)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
3 folds, Hero bets $0.15, 2 folds, Button raises to $0.50, SB raises to $2.40, 2 folds, Button raises to $6.36 (All-In), SB calls $2.80 (All-In)

Flop: ($10.60) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($10.60) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($10.60) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $10.60 | Rake: $0.70

I think I'm with IOPQ on this one, I think I'm shoving this, taking my lumps... I think I'm ok here with getting my QQ busted if they turn over AA/KK, even reasonably ok with losing to AK here... At this level I just think there are too many people willing to throw in with any pair here... especially 99+. I do realize though that reads would be greatly beneficial and that I am a casual player, who tends to take a bit more risk in stride...
06-19-2009, 01:09 PM
bigspenda73

lol@"I'm only getting my QQ busted if they turn over AA/KK"
06-19-2009, 01:39 PM
surviva316

for the record i don't think we should be folding QQ's preflop too often, i'm just saying that our line of reasoning shouldn't be "Zomg i have QQ and i'm playing retards let's get it all in."

ps: any poker argument that insinuates that the other side's line of reasoning begins with "zomg" automatically wins
06-19-2009, 02:58 PM
Monty3038

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

lol@"I'm only getting my QQ busted if they turn over AA/KK"

Point taken. A more correct way to say it would have been, I'm really only concerned if they hold AA/KK/AK pre-flop.