AQ 3bet facing C/R

vill in 17/13 with fold t0 3b of 60ish

is this 3 bet horrible ?
as played... am I ahead of anything here??

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($29.50)
Hero (Button) ($67.53)
BB ($84.58)
UTG ($50.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ac.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qh.gif
UTG bets $2, Hero raises $7, 2 folds, UTG calls $5

Flop: ($14.75) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/js.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $9, UTG raises $20, Hero ...

yes, you're ahead of AQ with no clubs
I don't like the 3b

very few worse 17/13 hands are calling a 3bet UTG, and we don't want to fold out the ones we do beat, so why 3bet?

Code:

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Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  1,047,930,048  games    1.094 secs  957,888,526  games/sec

Board:
Dead: 

        equity        win        tie              pots won        pots tied       
Hand 0:        61.410%          52.10%        09.31%              545942724          97592574.00  { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 1:        38.590%          29.28%        09.31%              306802176          97592574.00  { AQo }

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guys its 4 handed

if that fold 2 3b is over a decent sample 3betting is okay. if hes our std 17/13 who just had a run over 300 hands and doesnt adjust to fourhandedness much I flat

3 bets fine/good.

His small flop raise is kinda worrysome and I probably fold.



lol jk I flat and get it on any basically any turn bar maaaybe a king, though admitedly I'm far from delighted.


Also I hope the guys who were against 3 betting thought it was 6 handed, as if they didn't they could do with utilising positional 3 betting a little bit more.

So, you're calling so that you can fold if a K comes? I don't see why not to shove the flop if you're continuing.

i called, turned a club
c/r'd all in

vill had KK fwiw

I dont mind the three bet preflop. What are you supposed to do 4 handed, call it only from PF to the river? The flop bet is pretty suspicious if coming from a tag. I dont see what you beat here from a 17/13 with this line.

I'd def. polarize my 3betting range vs. this villain, why not flat our big/semi-big hands vs. someone who folds to a ton of 3bets and 3bet junkier hands.

Flop is an lol easy fold, his range is like JJ+,AQ,AcKc

I don't get why anyone would want to stack off against this opponent on this board texture, exactly what bluffs/worse-value hands is he supposed to have?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by langaan

vill in 17/13 with fold t0 3b of 60ish

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I agree with bigspenda, that vs this particular villain who also folds to a reasonable amount of 3bets, you're dead here a lot.

Even worse, you block him from having the Axcc which is the hand we are most likely hoping to get in against with AQ on this board. The only other hands we're legitimately "hoping" to see are KJcc, JTcc and 9Tcc, but I'm not even sure this villain calls those hands OOP to 3bets.

If I was going to continue, I'd just call down and re-eval probably.

hah missed the Ac thing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I'd def. polarize my 3betting range vs. this villain, why not flat our big/semi-big hands vs. someone who folds to a ton of 3bets and 3bet junkier hands.

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this

edit -misread


I don't see why anyone would not 3bet 4 AQ 4 handed

you're usually crushed in this spot vs this villain vs this raise size

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

edit -misread


I don't see why anyone would not 3bet 4 AQ 4 handed

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there are certainly arguments for and against it, it's probably more of a stylistic/comfort thing whether one chooses to do it or not. Just giving a blanket "always 3bet AQo when it's 4handed" is pretty useless.

i didn't mean 100% unthinking spenda, maybe it came out that way

obviously my dynamic at the table and what's happened so far/recently matters a lot to me, but given none of that info it seems like a clear 3bet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

i didn't mean 100% unthinking spenda, maybe it came out that way

obviously my dynamic at the table and what's happened so far/recently matters a lot to me, but given none of that info it seems like a clear 3bet.

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he has fold to 3b 60%
that means if he opens 20% of hands from CO, he folds 12% of those hands
so we are left with 8% of hands:

Hand 0: 53.803% { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 46.197% { AQo }

so we're not 3bing for value obviously and we're folding to a 4b so we're really 3bing as a bluff
and given that PF range, he could have:

Board: Qc 4c Js

Hand 0: 63.159% { JJ+, AQs, KQs, KcJc, KTs, QJs, AQo }
Hand 1: 36.841% { AcQh }

on the flop and we're pretty crushed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

i didn't mean 100% unthinking spenda, maybe it came out that way

obviously my dynamic at the table and what's happened so far/recently matters a lot to me, but given none of that info it seems like a clear 3bet.

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Agree w/ this about the 3bet

As far as postflop goes, I'm not auto folding to a c/r w/TPTK and Ac on this board.

Those of you accounting for how our hand does vs villains range aren't considering the strong possibility that villain's ranges are going to be wider than normal based on the fact that it's 4 handed.

Villain isn't always going to bet the turn, you are going to pick up equity a decent amount of the time w/ a gutter or BDNFD, His raise is small.....

Call and PLAY POKER.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

As far as postflop goes, I'm not auto folding to a c/r w/TPTK and Ac on this board.

Those of you accounting for how our hand does vs villains range aren't considering the strong possibility that villain's ranges are going to be wider than normal based on the fact that it's 4 handed.

Villain isn't always going to bet the turn, you are going to pick up equity a decent amount of the time w/ a gutter or BDNFD, His raise is small.....

Call and PLAY POKER.

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his range is not "wider" than the range I posted, it might have more air in it but that's slightly different because there is no way to estimate how much air he has in his range
well actually my range for PF is slightly incorrect because he's 4bing AK almost every time, and QQ most of the time and KK+ some of the time

so let's take out QQ, and AK
and to simulate him slowplaying we'll have him slowplay half of his kings and 4b the rest, and 4b one of his aces combinations, and leave two in:

Hand 0: 48.686% { AdAs, AhAs, KdKh, KdKs, KhKs, QQ-88, AQs-ATs, KTs+, QJs, AQo-AJo }
Hand 1: 51.314% { AcQh }

in that case we're a slight favorite but we're not jumping up and down about 3bing it

I'd call pre, by flatting you're narrowing his range down to something that you aren't really ahead of. By flatting it'll also allow you to use your position more against a wider range. Fold flop, he's a 17/13, he's almost never bluffing, and you have the Ac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

i didn't mean 100% unthinking spenda, maybe it came out that way

obviously my dynamic at the table and what's happened so far/recently matters a lot to me, but given none of that info it seems like a clear 3bet.

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he has fold to 3b 60%
that means if he opens 20% of hands from CO, he folds 12% of those hands

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I think you're drawing too many assumptions from the fold to 3b stat -- we don't even know the # of hands, plus those stats may have been collected at a full table. On top of it, everyone has a positionally adjusted fold to 3bet range...

This is a spot where a HUD can be detrimental if you put too much weight in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

i didn't mean 100% unthinking spenda, maybe it came out that way

obviously my dynamic at the table and what's happened so far/recently matters a lot to me, but given none of that info it seems like a clear 3bet.

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he has fold to 3b 60%
that means if he opens 20% of hands from CO, he folds 12% of those hands

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I think you're drawing too many assumptions from the fold to 3b stat -- we don't even know the # of hands, plus those stats may have been collected at a full table. On top of it, everyone has a positionally adjusted fold to 3bet range...

This is a spot where a HUD can be detrimental if you put too much weight in it.

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actually that range is really loose since I have him calling KTs OOP
this is a real "calling range" where we have two slowplayed aces combos, three slowplayed kings, QQ and AK all get 4b, calls with AQs-AJs, KQs and AQo

Hand 0: 53.984% { AdAs, AhAs, KdKh, KdKs, KhKs, JJ-99, AQs-AJs, KQs, AQo }
Hand 1: 46.016% { AcQh }

I made THIS range just based from general assumptions of what a tag player shows up with in 3b pots

I would call pre.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I would call pre.

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I'm going to assume you responded this way because you don't know what to do postflop. =p

::jab::

Call pre
Fold flop.

I'd certainly check the flop, as played after he raises i ofc fold.

the 3-bet pre is fine if you can stack off to a 4bet (im not 100% sure you can at 50nl vs a tight player like this, so I would probably call until I was sure).

I would fold to the flop raise since you only beat draws, and draws typically c/r harder. (I think I would fold to any c/r though).