Some 5nl hands prt 2

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07-02-2009, 12:37 PM
Vinland

Some 5nl hands prt 2

Hand 1
Villain 1: 67/2/.9 over 71 pretty transparent, limped tones and stayed in pots when he connected.
Villain 2: only 11 hands on him. He proved to be bad.

I know I'm behind, I believe I had the odds to make the turn call but did I have the odds (implied) on the flop to make the call?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Villain 2 (BB) ($5.85)
UTG ($3.68)
UTG+1 ($5.83)
MP1 ($9.88)
Villain 1 (MP2) ($8.49)
Hero (CO) ($5)
Button ($5.88)
SB ($6.20)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, Villain 1 calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.25, 1 fold, SB calls $0.23, Villain 2 calls $0.20, Villain 1 calls $0.20

Flop: ($1) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Villain 2 bets $1.80, Villain 1 calls $1.80, Hero calls $1.80, 1 fold

Turn: ($6.40) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
Villain 2 bets $1.80, Villain 1 raises $6.44 (All-In), Hero ?

Hand 2
Villain is 24/6/12/ over 36
not seen a lot of spots w/ him. When he did PFR, he usually won it PreFlop or on the flop with a cbet.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($8.92)
UTG+1 ($10.16)
Hero (MP1) ($5.14)
Villain (MP2) ($10.49)
CO ($4.93)
Button ($10.39)
SB ($1.54)
BB ($6.93)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
2 folds, Hero bets $0.20, Villain calls $0.20, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.47) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.40, Villain raises $0.80, Hero calls $0.40

When I bet I thought he would float me since the flop is pretty non-threatening. His min raise was troubling but I didnt think I could give up yet.
I certainly put him on a SD, Set or a decent A and he was just looking to push me off pot.

Turn: ($2.07) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $2, Hero ?

The Ace worried me, I felt it could be a good part of his calling range so I checked to see his response. At this point I probably only beat a bluff. Any chance that's what happened?

Hand 3
Villain was 60/23/9.5 over 35
Had a note from the session that he is a loose caller preflop and postflop.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($6.13)
Villain (Button) ($3.16)
SB ($9.33)
BB ($3.08)
Hero (UTG) ($5)
UTG+1 ($1.48)
MP1 ($4.26)
MP2 ($10.18)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
Hero bets $0.20, 4 folds, Villain calls $0.20, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.47) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.35, Villain raises $0.70, Hero ?

Since he calls loose, I felt a cbet would be worthwhile as he would call with worse. His reraise stumped me a bit. He is a maniac but is he bluffing on this board?

Hand 4

Only 20 hands on villain 53/18/1.8 I had a note that he just flatted AA in the SB to an EP raise in an earlier hand. He played the flop passively in that hand but then shoved when the turn brought a second diamond making the board a little dangerous.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($4.93)
SB ($6.02)
BB ($5)
UTG ($1.88)
UTG+1 ($5.28)
MP1 ($11.18)
MP2 ($2.91)
MP3 ($5.70)
CO ($5.33)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.10, 4 folds, Hero raises $0.35, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.77) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.97) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.20, Hero ?

I have nothing, he certainly could have a K. His bets are small, is he sucking me along? Or betting scared with a lower PP?

Hand 5

Villain was 13/7/3 over 45
He usually bet light regardless of strength post flop.

I am hoping for a critique on all streets, as I played it and as I should have played it...especially the flop...was checking my best option?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($5.30)
MP3 ($6.11)
Hero (CO) ($4.75)
Button ($5.20)
SB ($1.63)
BB ($9.22)
UTG ($9.48)
UTG+1 ($8.71)
Villain (MP1) ($2.63)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
2 folds, Villain bets $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises $0.45, 3 folds, Villain calls $0.30

He raised and called my 3bet I put AK, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, in his 3bet flatting range...

Flop: ($0.97) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero checks

I felt that the likely A he would hold would be AK (maybe AQ) and that by betting I fold out worse.

Turn: ($0.97) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Villain bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

He bets light so I am not ready to lay down my kings yet. I still think he can have something other than an A. Since I checked the flop, he may think I don't have one either.

River: ($1.57) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Villain bets $1.88 (All-In), Hero ?

I lose to AK, AQ, JJ, I beat TT + QQ = Fold?

Thanks! :)
07-02-2009, 06:37 PM
PlayToWin

Re: Some 5nl hands prt 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Hand 1
I know I'm behind, I believe I had the odds to make the turn call but did I have the odds (implied) on the flop to make the call?

You should get a "odds and outs" chart if you don't have one. With 9 outs to the flush, you only need 2x the raise amount in the pot to call. With the flop bet and call there is $4.60 in the pot so it's an easy call for $1.80.
Now on the turn, you don't have odds to call. With only 1 card left to come, you need a little better than 4x (I use 5x to be conservative) the raise in the pot to call. Even if the other villian calls the AI, there will only be ~$20 in the pot and you don't know that he'll call. You would need$25-$30 in the pot to make it a good call. To me, it's an easy fold on the Turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Hand 2
The Ace worried me, I felt it could be a good part of his calling range so I checked to see his response. At this point I probably only beat a bluff. Any chance that's what happened?

I think the flop call is fine. Facing a pot-size bet on the Turn with the overcard, I fold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Hand 3
Since he calls loose, I felt a cbet would be worthwhile as he would call with worse. His reraise stumped me a bit. He is a maniac but is he bluffing on this board?

He could easily be bluffing. I think I would call the flop, then, on a non-club turn, maybe bet/fold. With $1.87 in the pot, maybe bet $1.20. If he calls, he's probably got you beat, proceed with caution. If he raises, fold. I don't think checking the Turn is a good idea with a maniac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Hand 4

I have nothing, he certainly could have a K. His bets are small, is he sucking me along? Or betting scared with a lower PP?

Probably betting scared with a low PP or weak king possibly. I think a decent raise on the flop is gonna take the hand. If he calls a flop raise, I fold to a Turn bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Hand 5
I lose to AK, AQ, JJ, I beat TT + QQ = Fold?

Thanks! :)

I raise preflop to .60 cents. Flop and Turn are fine. I fold the river. You also lose to the flush and you don't have odds to chase your flush.
07-03-2009, 04:58 AM
linaker

Re: Some 5nl hands prt 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayToWin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Hand 1
I know I'm behind, I believe I had the odds to make the turn call but did I have the odds (implied) on the flop to make the call?

You should get a "odds and outs" chart if you don't have one. With 9 outs to the flush, you only need 2x the raise amount in the pot to call. With the flop bet and call there is $4.60 in the pot so it's an easy call for $1.80.

This is not correct. The odds of making the flush are only 2 - 1 if you are certain of seeing both the turn and the river, so calling getting odds of 2 - 1 is only correct if they are both AI on the flop or calling puts you AI. The chance of making the flush on the next card is about 4 - 1 and you need those odds to make the call, as if you do not hit the flush on the turn, you may face a big bet that you cannot call.

Your KTs may not have been behind on the flop. If they both had one pair or worse, (providing they did not have Ah3h or JJ+), then you had 15 outs: 3 kings and 3 tens plus 9 hearts. In that case, you were the favourite to win the hand by the showdown, so you could have shoved. And you certainly had the odds to call and see the turn.

If one or both of them had 2 pair or a set, then you had 8 or 9 outs. (If they had a set, 3h is not an out). Assuming 9 outs then you need odds of 4.1 - 1, so you can call for $1.80 on the flop, if you will win 4.1 * $1.80 = $7.38 from the hand. As the pot was $4.60, if you hit your flush on the turn, you would need to extract an extra $2.78. As in this scenario at least one of them has 2 pair, then I think you can be pretty confident of achieving that and so I think you did have the implied odds to make the flop call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayToWin

Now on the turn, you don't have odds to call. With only 1 card left to come, you need a little better than 4x (I use 5x to be conservative) the raise in the pot to call. Even if the other villian calls the AI, there will only be ~$20 in the pot and you don't know that he'll call. You would need$25-$30 in the pot to make it a good call. To me, it's an easy fold on the Turn.

It is correct that you did not have the odds to call if you had 9 outs and I agree that it did not look likely that you had 15 outs on the turn. The pot was $14.64 and you had $3.20 left, so it looks like you made the mistake of forgetting you could not win that whole pot. As you had just $3.20 left, the effective pot size for you was $11.40, so you were getting 3.5 - 1, when 9 outs meant you needed 4.1 - 1, and you would not have got those odds, even if villain 2 called.

Villain 2 only had to put another $2.85 into the pot, so I think its fairly likely he will call, and then you would have got 3.9 - 1, which is pretty close to the odds you need. The argument against calling is that villain 2 may not call and/or you could have fewer than 9 outs. If either of them has 99, 7d7s, 44 or 3c3d then 3h or 7h are not outs. If either has Ahxh, you have at most 6 outs. On the other hand, you will be AI, so you can't lose any more money if you hit your flush and one of them hits a boat or the nut flush. Given you are so close to getting the odds you need if you have 9 outs and there is some chance that you do in fact have 15, I think your call was correct.[/b]
07-03-2009, 10:59 AM
Erpel

Hand 1: linakers analysis is reasonable, but doesn't underline exactly how marginal this is on both flop and turn. I think against bad players who could also have TT-QQ here you are probably good to call both streets, but I think the EV of either/both calls is pretty close to 0. And folding is also 0EV so the question is whether you want to embrace variance.

Try reading linakers analysis again but remember this: When you call the flop you have $2.95 left in your stack and for the flop call to be correct you have to win $2.78 on average every time you make your flush. Considering that AhXh is something you should certainly consider for the two opponents this seems almost unrealistically optimistic - sometimes you will lose even if you make the flush. The only thing that justifies it is that a K may be good (against both!) and the runner-runner trips/two pair/straight might also win you the day. Also you may win up to an additional $2.95 from two opponents and not just one. Flop call is marginal. Folding would be safe and imo better.

For the turn remember that your stack is $2.95 (not $3.20) and Villain 2 has $2 behind - he is almost 100% to call the raise. So you need to call $2.95 for a chance to profit $6.44+$6.40+$1.80+$2.00 = $16.64. That's pot odds of 5.6 to 1 or so. Your opponents could at this time have TT-QQ (12 outs), KK-AA (9 outs), 65 (9 outs), 43/99/44/33 (8 outs), AhXh (6 outs) - but you may well have different outs against each opponent. Like if one opponent has AhXh and the other has a set or two pair. You now have 0 outs because you can either lose to a set or to a better flush. So while the pot odds seem good, your chance of winning might actually be so low that a call is not justified. I probably wouldn't mind a fold on the turn either, but I really think a fold on the flop is my preferred play in this hand.

Hand 2:
PF: Ok
Flop: Ok - min-raises are annoying because if people are not tricky enough to min-raise as a bluff a min-raise normally signals a hand that is already strong enough that he's willing to go all-in with it without being improved and he's not particularly concerned with you outdrawing him - he just wants to build a pot. Seeing as the flop is 876 rainbow T9 is an obvious possible holding - but considering his stats 88/77/66 is more likely and he just overlooked the straight. If he is hyper aggressive as his stats suggest he could be simply betting as a bluff because he thinks you probably missed this low flop. If you have nitty stats he might think his min-raise is profitable as a pure bluff.
Turn: While you could have had AK/AQ/AJ on the flop when calling the min-raise when you check the turn you basically cry out - it's an ace and I'm scared - make me fold. It's a pretty trivial bet for villain with his entire range. When you check here you will fold so often that it's just super exploitable. He may be turning a hand similar to yours into a bluff (99-KK) but he still gets more value out of it this way than if he checks it down. Could it be a bluff? Yes, but only if he min-raises coordinated / wet flops as a bluff. In this case I think his range is actually strong enough that even if it has the occasional bluff in it you are still correct to fold turn.

Hand 3:
He could certainly be bluffing. Boards that are paired are pretty good boards to bluff at. You look like a standard cbet - meaning that you probably make this bet often even if you've missed the flop. Say if you'd had AQ you'd still bet. But you'd fold to his raise - so it's profitable for him to do so. Seeing as the board has clubs he could also be semi-bluffing with any two clubs. The problem with the hand is the stack sizes remaining. If you put more money in you're almost committed to stack off. If you think he's bluffing just call and keep calling. If he's bluffing and you raise him or bet into him he'll just fold worse now - but if he's bluffing with worse and you call him he'll continue betting and stack off with worse. Call down > fold > call with subsequent bet/raise > raise imo.

Hand 4:
Limp-call is such a weak play. And so is the weak betting. He could certainly have a K, any pair or even a random two-pair hand. But he's keeping the pot small, the board is dry and you might end up with a decent top or second pair hand. You have a decent amount of equity. Pot odds aren't too horrible. Your implied odds are probably bad. I might call another street just because it's so cheap, but I'd probably only call a big river bet if I hit my ace. And if I miss the river and he checks I'd probably check behind. The other option is to take control of the hand and put in a good raise on flop or turn. The reason I don't like it is that the flop is dry. If he flop was drawy he could be weak betting to keep the price low on a draw. Since he's almost certainly not on a draw he's maybe weak betting a strong hand (like he did with AA in that earlier), a lower pair or a weak king. With an AF of 1.8 he's probably not betting with nothing. I don't think he's folding to a single bet. If you want to push him off his hand you'd need to be prepared to fire two or three big bets. I don't think this is necessarily the best spot for that.

Hand 5:
PF: Fine. Bet size is a wide open argument. Good standard 3bet size for position, but due to opponent stack size arguments could be made for a smaller size. Or a larger one.
Flop: WA/WB flop. Pot control is a good idea. Flush draw isn't fantastic, but if it comes on the turn you can redraw on the river to the nut flush (with board still paired so not actually the nuts)
Turn: While AA/33/JJ cannot be ruled out that's a whopping total of 7 hand combinations. 33 is unlikely due to his preflop stats. AK (4 combos) is also possible and might bet weakly because it's worried about the flush and wanting to see a cheap showdown. He can certainly bet QQ here, especially if he has Qs. You have about 11 outs here to a hand that might be best, but your implied odds aren't fantastic. Any spade would mean you want to see a cheap showdown because if the pot grows he probably has a full house or quads. Any king could give you a full house, but still behind an AK full house. You're good to call this bet either way, and maybe a small/medium bet on the river if you can beat AK at the time, but pot control is certainly your priority here.
River: Just fold. A thinking player could easily bluff you here - you've played passively on both flop and turn signaling that you don't want to stack off, however this looks a lot like a slowplay gone bad. He likes his hand and wants to stack off.

Hand as a whole played fine I think.
07-03-2009, 11:57 AM
Robb

Hand 1: jam the flop if you're gonna continue

Hand 2: std preflop and flop, bet/fold the turn

Hand 3: like #2, bet/fold turn

Hand 4: You've gotta call these min-bets flop and turn because of odds. You can raise when you think he's weak, but a lot more villains these days are doing stoopid min-raise crap with big hands. Need a read. Nothing wrong with folding A-high + air to a real river bet here.

Hand 5: Even though he's tight, his flatting range is pretty wide and includes 22-QQ, KJ+, AT+ and probably some Axs and sc's. Against that range, he looks to be betting that you DON'T have an Ace rather than trying to prove he does. I'm expecting QQ-77 a lot here, and I'm stacking off a good bit of the time depending on my reads.
07-03-2009, 12:09 PM
Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayToWin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Hand 3
Since he calls loose, I felt a cbet would be worthwhile as he would call with worse. His reraise stumped me a bit. He is a maniac but is he bluffing on this board?

He could easily be bluffing. I think I would call the flop, then, on a non-club turn, maybe bet/fold. With $1.87 in the pot, maybe bet $1.20. If he calls, he's probably got you beat, proceed with caution. If he raises, fold. I don't think checking the Turn is a good idea with a maniac.

I'd bet more like $1 - after the raised flop, your turn bet just has to show you're still interested.

@Erpel - I read your analysis of all 5 hands, and while the approach seems correct, you tend to overestimate the nut portions of a range and not count enough mediocre/bad hands. Which makes your advice trend weak-tight.

Bet/fold is amazing weapon when you learn to use in the right spots.
07-03-2009, 03:19 PM
linaker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erpel

For the turn remember that your stack is $2.95 (not $3.20)

Oops! Yes, I overlooked the pre flop bet. My bad. So your odds are a bit better on the turn. This goes to show that stack size is important. Hand 1 is interesting as the decisons are marginal.
07-03-2009, 03:49 PM
Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by linaker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erpel

For the turn remember that your stack is $2.95 (not $3.20)

Oops! Yes, I overlooked the pre flop bet. My bad. So your odds are a bit better on the turn. This goes to show that stack size is important. Hand 1 is interesting as the decisons are marginal.

Hand 1 is way too exciting when you call the flop. Who cares about these marginal pot odds decisions? The pot's big enough, so...

ARR EN

Depending on reads you have something like 10 - 12 outs most of which hold up multiway just as well as HU.
07-03-2009, 03:56 PM
Vinland

As it turned out, calling was bad. A shove would have been much better given what they both had.
The call on the turn was justified w/ pot odds but I was well behind at that point...

I kinda like Robb's suggestion, all-in would've made the most sense in this hand given their holdings. However, I wonder if folding would've been that bad a choice either...
07-03-2009, 04:56 PM
Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

As it turned out, calling was bad. A shove would have been much better given what they both had.
The call on the turn was justified w/ pot odds but I was well behind at that point...

I kinda like Robb's suggestion, all-in would've made the most sense in this hand given their holdings. However, I wonder if folding would've been that bad a choice either...

imo here:

shove > fold > call

Folding's not horrible, but why are in this hand with KTs if we're shutting down on this board?