couple hands - donking leads to confusion... mostly mine

Hand 1
-CO in this hand I had been 3betting a tonnn on the button, and he's been folding to all of them. I'm expecting a 4bet bluff very soon, hence my 3betting of 9's on button (with intention of shoving over)
-BB in this hand seems somewhat fishy, 38/12 type and I figure is seeing flop pretty wide
-Turn lead was reasonably fast and felt kinda FoS and river shove was insta shove
-I'm not sure if a flush would be able to insta shove and might need to think at least a little on this board? could be wrong


$5/$10 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($985.00)
UTG+1 ($2493.75)
CO ($1518.00)
Hero (BTN) ($1000.00)
SB ($2945.00)
BB ($1203.75)

Pre-flop: ($15, 6 players) Hero is BTN :9h: :9c:
2 folds, CO raises to $30, Hero raises to $90, 1 fold, BB calls $80, CO folds

Flop: :4c: :5c: :6d: ($215, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $135, BB calls $135

Turn: :6c: ($485, 2 players)
BB bets $130, Hero calls $130

River: :4h: ($745, 2 players)
BB bets $710, Hero ?


Hand 2
-villain in this hand is pretty tight overall, like 18/15, yet still manages to fold to most of my 3bets
-decide to flat him since I haven't 3bet him once today, and am pretty sure he'll fold
-no overwhelmingly relevant history, I'm not sure how he perceives my donking, though I'm sure he thinks its weird on a K high flop that I'm not checking to him
-He has a low cbet percent around 55, which is also why I donk
-is this an easy fold to a quasi tight player, even though my line looks weird?

$3/$6 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($603.00)
UTG+1 ($613.20)
CO ($743.05)
BTN ($633.00)
Hero (SB) ($1211.40)
BB ($600.00)

Pre-flop: ($9, 6 players) Hero is SB :ac: :as:
2 folds, CO raises to $18, 1 fold, Hero calls $15, 1 fold

Flop: :8c: :ks: :4c: ($42, 2 players)
Hero bets $30, CO calls $30

Turn: :jd: ($102, 2 players)
Hero bets $70, CO raises to $243

1) Oh man I'm sure he's got squadoosh a lot. I think he can for sure have a flush cause he's gonna be on the level where he's frustrated and just says fuck it I've got a pretty good hand and I'm not gonna even think about folding. I think I fold I guess I think its more of the latter than the former.

2) I wouldn't' lead on this board cause he's always cbetting it. As played kinda sucks but I fold I guess inspite of the way he plays and shit I've seen him do.

1st hand ... I don't see anything you beat that calls the 3bet cold, c/c that flop and leads when the 6 pairs and 3 flush falls. He could have all sorts of stuff, it's doubtful any of it is worse than what you have though. 67 makes quite a bit of sense, doesn't it?

edit: after looking at his turn sizing again, 67 doesn't make that much sense. 66 starts to make a little more sense, but even that probably wouldn't snap shove the river. Maybe you're good here, I dunno.

2nd hand ... if he was going to bluff you, why do you think he would have waited for the turn to do it? Unless he has something random like QT that wanted to float your donk and is now raising because it picked up equity ... I suppose you could say he has clubs sometimes? KJ/J8/JJ are the only value hands that make sense, but it's tough to make an argument for this type of player having anything else.

Hand 1: JJ/TT??? His line looks like sooo much bullshit.
Hand 2: It's Aces, it's online, I'm not folding. I'm such a Pay off Wizard.

i see the point of not having 3bet previously, however if you flat a hand like AA isn't it generally better to do so in position? if he has hands like JJ/QQ/KK/AK theres a ton of flops he'll hate and wont stack off where he would have pre?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bspahn

i see the point of not having 3bet previously, however if you flat a hand like AA isn't it generally better to do so in position?

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Well ofcourse, anything is better to do in position. Though if I was on the button, I might be more inclined to 3bet him, since he'll inherently view it as a lighter 3bet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bspahn

if he has hands like JJ/QQ/KK/AK theres a ton of flops he'll hate and wont stack off where he would have pre?

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Yah this is true. But this is the risk you run whenever you slowplay a big overpair preflop. You can also say that he'd fold hands like KQ/QJ/JT/AJ to 3bets a lot of the time, but if he hits a piece I might get two+ bets out of him instead. It's definitely a tradeoff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meeloche

1) Oh man I'm sure he's got squadoosh a lot. I think he can for sure have a flush cause he's gonna be on the level where he's frustrated and just says fuck it I've got a pretty good hand and I'm not gonna even think about folding. I think I fold I guess I think its more of the latter than the former.

2) I wouldn't' lead on this board cause he's always cbetting it. As played kinda sucks but I fold I guess inspite of the way he plays and shit I've seen him do.

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Totally agree with this post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meeloche

1) I think he can for sure have a flush cause he's gonna be on the level where he's frustrated and just says fuck it I've got a pretty good hand and I'm not gonna even think about folding.

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I definitely agree that people think like this. But in this case, are people still going to make a pretty big shove or are they more likely to make a smaller 480ish type bet?

Is a flush still going to insta act on river? It was as insta as possible. Whatever that means from a donk. I can't imagine someone not needing to process the fact that a 4 spiked even.... hmmm

I think he makes his decision on the turn so yeah if he has a flush its gonna be insta on the river.

I guess its kinda hard to comment more since I know results but I just think his "value" range is wide enough to warrant a fold compared to the times he is bluffing with worse.

1)

I think its an easily fold and you could almost fold turn. I can't really give you reasons for this because the hand is basically a "does he have it or not?" hand

2)

I heard you out on the "he's 18/15 and folds to 3bets a lot," but i would still almost never not 3bet AA out of the SB. If you were on the button then I think your argument would be way stronger, but I think just about anyone at the 5/10 level with tag like stats is gonna defend the shit out of a small blind 3bet.

As for the flop, once again, even though his cbet frequency is relatively low, its still gonna be super high on this board. I would never lead.

He's not gonna not raise the flop slightly deep with any set, so his range that beats you is JJ/KJ. Sadly some people will have exactly and always those hands. This is a very tough spot, imo. I think I would just fold, and use some lame excuse like that your hand blocks most of his air that would make a play like this.

I agree with renton on both hands.

"i would still almost never not 3bet AA"

"He's not gonna not raise the flop"

sorry but my head just exploded

1) Its close between checking and betting flop, but ofc betting is fine. The turn is a little more tricky, and if he would have bet bigger it would have been a fold imo, but this gay bet im calling for sure. And now when he shoves river I think it polarizes his range a whole lot and makes me wanna call, fwiw i think the river is the easiest decision of all three streets.

2) I think Griffeys reasoning for not 3betting a hand like AA vs a nit is very valid, although still not "standard". If I do slowplay pre, I'd most definitly just c/r or c/c this flop before leading it...

On the turn I think its an easy muck, we're talking about a one-dimensional player thats easy to play against, he never has a flush draw here, he never has AK, he's also rarely bluffing. So I agree with Renton this will sadly be JJ/KJ 90% of the time.