3-betting with JJ (10NL)

This guy is an unknown and I only have about 10 on him. My stats say he's played a one or two hands, but I don't recall them.

Should we 3-bet in these spots or just call behind?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($5.95)
SB ($10)
BB ($9.85)
UTG ($10.20)
MP1 ($3.35)
MP2 ($9.50)
Hero (CO) ($10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
2 folds, MP2 bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, 3 folds, MP2 raises to $9.50 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $1.95 | Rake: $0

Paraphrasing a few things from the BobboFitos DVD set regarding which hands to 3bet.

You are 3betting two kinds of hands.
1) For value
2) As a bluff

With many bet decisions what decides whether a bet is for value or a bluff (or protection etc) is what kinds of hands continue against it. On a flop we say we bet for value if we expect to be ahead when called.

There are some more distinctions than that, but the essence of the argument is that we're not betting for value if we're ahead before we bet, but only if we're ahead (or otherwise profitable to continue) once our opponent has decided to continue against our bet.

After the flop this continuation criterium is normally met by our bet being called - that's the occurrence we analyse first. Preflop in a 3/4/5bet scenario the continuation criterium is really met best by asking the question - is my hand so good that it's good enough to stack off with if my opponent continues with aggression and goes all-in or calls an all-in.

It's true that post flop we should also consider what happens when we get raised and preflop we should also consider what happens when our 3bet gets called for a complete analysis, but the emphasis seems to lie with the above lines.

Thus, we 3bet for value with hands we have decided are good enough for us to go all-in against this specific opponent in this specific scenario. If we do not 3bet for value (if we can see ourselves folding to preflop aggression) we are 3betting as a bluff.

In this hand your decision to 3bet JJ turned your JJ into a bluff - because you were not willing to stack off with it. It may be true that it's not good enough to stack off with, but if that is the case you should maybe not have 3bet it in the first place.

I would suggest you maybe get more value out of your JJ by flat calling it preflop when you are not ready to back it with your entire stack and do your 3bet bluffing with the 76s and A5s type hands of this world.

Ok, maybe I should elaborate a little on why a 3bet can be a stack-off question.

Assume stacks of 100bb. Raise to 3.5bb, 3bet to 10.5bb (in position), 4bet to 30bb, 5bet shove.

Assume 3betting range of AA-QQ, AK and a good few bluffs. Let's take the same number of hand combinations as bluffs as we have in the value part of the range. Let's call it 97s-64s, 87s-54s.

Since the 3betting range has some bluffs in it, sometimes the opponent will 4bet as a bluff. Let's use a completely wacky 10s4c as our 4bet bluff example. What then happens if the 3bettor 5bet shoves his entire range?

Code:

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        equity        win        tie              pots won        pots tied       
Hand 0:        62.514%          61.70%        00.81%              67615576            891458.00  { QQ+, AKs, 97s, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AKo }
Hand 1:        37.486%          36.67%        00.81%              40188964            891458.00  { Ts4c }

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Since the 4bettor in the bet size example I outline needs 70/200 = 35% equity to call the shove he is correct to call a shove with a hand as poor as Ts4c once he has 4bet bluffed with it.

This suggests that the 3bettor has fold equity, but if he is 4bet then there is no real fold equity in 5bet shoving. Thus, if he is 4bet and he chooses to continue showdown equity becomes very important. (and he wouldn't continue with the bluff part of his 3bet range as he did in the above example - suspend disbelief for a second).

Incidentally, if someone does want to 4bet bluff I have found one rule of thumb that says that the 4bet cannot be bigger than 1/4 of the starting stack or the above effect occurs where even if you 4bet bluff with crap you HAVE to call any 5bet. In the above example that would mean a 4bet to 25bb instead of the 30bb I used for this explanation. People who like being able to 4bet bluff will typically adopt a smaller 4bet size both for their value and bluff 4bets.

Another way of saying it is that preflop no hand is so big a dog that it's drawing dead. Against a range of hands that has a non-zero amount of bluffs very few hands end up with less than 30% equity.

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Originally Posted by Erpel

Thus, we 3bet for value with hands we have decided are good enough for us to go all-in against this specific opponent in this specific scenario. If we do not 3bet for value (if we can see ourselves folding to preflop aggression) we are 3betting as a bluff.

In this hand your decision to 3bet JJ turned your JJ into a bluff - because you were not willing to stack off with it. It may be true that it's not good enough to stack off with, but if that is the case you should maybe not have 3bet it in the first place.

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i kind of disagree here. while it is true we arent comfy stacking off here, that doesnt necessarily mean we turned JJ into a bluff. What i mean is, villain is bad and has more options than just fold or raise. For instance, there are many villains who would continue with most of their range, but only 3b the very top of it. In this scenario, we could still be 3betting for value because we've manipulated villains range into weak calling hands which we are way ahead of and strong raising hands which we're obviously behind. So i think the real issue here is whether villain is the type to flat a 3b with alot of his opening range and what that opening range really is.

against an unknown that isnt particularly memorable though, 3betting is probably a bad idea regardless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erpel

Incidentally, if someone does want to 4bet bluff I have found one rule of thumb that says that the 4bet cannot be bigger than 1/4 of the starting stack or the above effect occurs where even if you 4bet bluff with crap you HAVE to call any 5bet. In the above example that would mean a 4bet to 25bb instead of the 30bb

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i dont think i would have ever realized this. ty erpel

Unless the villain calls too many 3 bets, I'd defo make call my standard play in these spots. Although we don't like taking flops multi-way with JJ generally, it isn't a disaster if someone else calls behind because it helps our implied odds/set value even though that isn't solely why we're playing the hand.

fwiw I'd start to 3 bet this hand if the opener is in a later position (and isn't a nit) because the dynamic is generally way loser and we are more likely to be ahead of his 3 bet calling range. This is because he gives our 3 bet less respect due his open being less credible from CO or BU in the 1st place. Basically he may well fold hands like 88 AJs AQ etc and crap when he opens in MP and call these types of hands to 3 bets following an open in later positions. This drastically affects how far ahead/behind of his continuing to 3 bet range we are.

This 2nd paragraph may sound basic and obvious, but you mentioned you were a stranger to cash games so just making sure this concept's clear to you.

Maybe we just have to go to the basics. Go all in with AA or KK. 3-bet QQ, JJ and AK and in some occasions with loose players AQ and TT. I think that makes a descision easier :D

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Originally Posted by stardustakos

Maybe we just have to go to the basics. Go all in with AA or KK. 3-bet QQ, JJ and AK and in some occasions with loose players AQ and TT. I think that makes a descision easier :D

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jesus just killed a kitten...thanks a lot.

Why don't we try and avoid those pesky solve-all's ok? Instead, lets replace that with something that will actually generate long term monies.

I fold here unless I've seen him make similar move before in the last ten hands (if he's playing like a maniac you'd know by now imo)

I think at best we're flipping and we can fold.

Hey go easy on me folks! I am just simplifying little what we read in the most poker strategy articles. I addition, at microstakes as low as 10 NL it is also written, that ABC Poker is needed with no fancy plays, bluffs etc. I also understand the nature of the forum, the educational part I mean, the insights of some better players than us beginners, that will help us now and later (I hope in bigger stakes)but I am just saying that mabe we should not lose the main idea.

So please correct me if I am wrong about something but I felt a little bit hostility and sarcasm..... Nah mabe thats just me...

Smile people

The problem with this hand is that you have no idea about the villains continuing range. Given this, don't 3bet pre and fold as played.

Read this:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...em-t70711.html

Read my posts in this thread.

Think about why it is correct to bet your monsters with the intent of getting all in, why a second tier of hands are good enough to check, good enough to call, good enough to see a showdown with if the pot is not grown out of proportion to the strength of the hand - and why those two ranges are followed by hands that are not good enough for any of the above, but which are strong enough to bet/raise as (semi-) bluffs because the fold equity they gain this way puts them above the line for making them profitable.

Then go back and read this again:

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Maybe we just have to go to the basics. Go all in with AA or KK. 3-bet QQ, JJ and AK and in some occasions with loose players AQ and TT. I think that makes a descision easier

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This is not ABC poker. What I described is ABC - this is unsofisticated fish thinking.

In other words - in ABC it does NOT logically follow that you bet medium strength hands hard.

Ok, JKDS. Consider the difference between 76s and JJ for purposes of 3betting (when you do not intend to stack off with JJ.

Scenario 1: Opponent 4bets you. You fold. Same EV.
Scenario 2: Opponent folds to your 3bet. Same EV.
Scenario 3: Opponent flats your 3bet. You see a flop.

If the flop has any A, K or Q you don't feel too good about having JJ. If the flop is 8-high you may still be up against AA, KK or QQ and any A, K or Q on the turn/river is going to worry you a lot. With JJ you are looking at reverse equity situations. With JJ you are pretty much happy to see it checked down if you do not flop your set as you only have 2 outs to improve.

With 76s you may flop nothing and have an easy fold. You bluffed, got called, missed and now you fold. A, K, Q-high etc - doesn't matter. Doesn't cause any worries. However, you may also flop a straight, flush or combo draw, in which case you can semi-bluff some more streets. You can fold out better hands and even if called you have very solid equity with your draw to a monster hand (that beats the kind of TPTK or overpair hands you'd expect to see in 3bet pots sometimes.)

So remind me again - when villain has a wide 3bet calling range and you 3bet JJ for value - which flops are you looking to extract value on?

Im not by any means a very good player but when i play nl5-nl10 and 3bet a lot(AJs-AK and AA-TT) i get called by Ax,suited connectors and even really shitty hands. And when i get 4bet its easy to fold everyyhing but AA-QQ so i would 3bet JJ for sure against an unknown.

I like the 3b for value but now fold without reads that he's shoving over fairly wide.

if you're not going to snap call, I would just call here
if you're going to 3b for value and fold, do it with AQo

with AQo you hope to get 4b by QQ+,AK and to get value from KQ, AJ type of hands so when you get flatted you should play for stacks on A or Q boards
but with JJ when you get flatted, sure you can play for stacks with an overpair, but it's not like you're getting value from tons of hand combos
maybe 99 or TT, but those don't flop overpairs every time you do
are you getting 99 to felt on T83? maybe, maybe not

it is true that villain will have Ax, scs and total crap when he calls sometimes so maybe it's not terribad
but JJ is actually a stronger hand than AQo, so you're kind of wasting it by 3b/folding

I agree with you in theory iopq but against most villains' LP opening range AQo is still too strong to 3b/f and plays almost as well as JJ in position w/o initiative.

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Originally Posted by Parasurama

I agree with you in theory iopq but against most villains' LP opening range AQo is still too strong to 3b/f and plays almost as well as JJ in position w/o initiative.

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I agree about LP, I think against some villains AQo is a 3b/call
but he's in MP2

"It's a position raiiise. I call it." -Teddy KGB

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Originally Posted by Erpel

So remind me again - when villain has a wide 3bet calling range and you 3bet JJ for value - which flops are you looking to extract value on?

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i tend to back JKDS here. i'm starting to find that the old "you should 3b for value hands that you are willing to continue facing a 4b with" is really just a rule of thumb, and there are very many spots at 25NL- where this does not hold up.

if a non-positionally aware 40/18 villain who is 0/5 fold to 3b and whom we've seen shove over a 3b w KK, but flat with everything else, then the answer to your question is oober simple....

think about it. by 3b'ing him the only way we've manipulated his range is by taking KK+ (2/3 hands we're most worried about) out of his range because he 4b's that and we fold. all (or most) of his other 77+, ATo+ crap flats.

so, against this opponent, the answer to your question is every other flop we'd want to see in a standard PFR'ed pot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erpel

hus, we 3bet for value with hands we have decided are good enough for us to go all-in against this specific opponent in this specific scenario. I

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disagree. Value against his calling range. His 4-bet range is not his calling range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erpel

In this hand your decision to 3bet JJ turned your JJ into a bluff - because you were not willing to stack off with it. It may be true that it's not good enough to stack off with, but if that is the case you should maybe not have 3bet it in the first place.

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disagree, as above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erpel

I would suggest you maybe get more value out of your JJ by flat calling it preflop when you are not ready to back it with your entire stack and do your 3bet bluffing with the 76s and A5s type hands of this world.

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agree

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

The problem with this hand is that you have no idea about the villains continuing range. Given this, don't 3bet pre and fold as played.

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this

should have just called Jacks r so tough to play but if no overs come or u hit ur set i think u would be golden

How can you 3-bet for isolation here nish?
7handed, 2folds Hero Villain 3 folds. Thats HU right?